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Godzilla x HAL x Terminator x A black hole!
Last post Tue, Aug 26 2014 by johnstaf, 12 replies.
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Posted on Fri, Aug 01 2014 23:20
by Shawn Gibson
Joined on Tue, Sep 23 2008, Toronto, Posts 187

So I've got 3 minutes written with VSL, using MIRx, and I have natural volume, sync, pre-eq. Sounds lovely. 34 channels of VSL so far; I'm rockin.  Everything is at 100, so I have some headroom; I can hear everything. I add 1 small Ra instrument (an erhu) and get it to play the same thing (for now) as a con sordino solo VSL violin after setting it in Cubase to 100. It sounds like Godzilla just stepped on Ghandi!

I assume this means that, my room space needs to be based on EW, and that even with MIR x (unique to each instrument) I may be able to put my VSL stuff into a folder and add my Altiverb 6 (1 instance for everything in total) to make it really big so that EW doesn't completely destroy everything? Does this make sense? I have no clue.

Why would they do that??? Geesh. Oh hi, you're writing music? Let us stop you right now, and ask you to please write brain-pounding stuff. We recorded these samples on the sun, with a solar flare chasing us the entire time! It's awesome.

They made a small beautiful Eastern instrument sound like it was capable of starting WW3. Geesh.

I have no idea how to incorporate the stuff I've bought from them into my music.

As they say on the internet...halp! lol

Eternal Nube with a passion for all-things VSL.
Posted on Sat, Aug 02 2014 01:01
by hetoreyn
Joined on Sat, Nov 27 2004, Vancouver, British Columbia, Posts 1157

Erm ... sorry what was the question??

Re-read your post 3 times and I'm still not sure what you're asking about?

You want more reverb on your VSL instruments to match EW VI's? It's REALLY not clear what you want to know

Hetoreyn
http://www.hetoreyn.com

Mac Pro 2013 - 3.5 ghz, 32 Gig RAM (Master)
27 inch iMac i5 2.7 Ghz 16 Gig RAM (Slave)


Pro-Tools 12 (Native), Mbox Pro 3
Logic ProX
Notion SLE

VI Pro, VE Pro, MIR, Vienna Suite, Omnisphere, Slate Digital Plugs.
Posted on Sat, Aug 02 2014 14:12
by Shawn Gibson
Joined on Tue, Sep 23 2008, Toronto, Posts 187

Yeah, I agree. Sorry for the completely incoherent attempt at humour:(

I'm trying to ask...and I'm not sure how to ask...how can I take my entire setup in VSL (which is all MIRx) and have it 'get along' with the 'larger' sounding EW collections I have?

I don't know if it's reverb, microphones, room recordings, or something else, as I've zero talent for spatialization (which is why I bought MIRx). 

Since everything in the EW libraries I have is 'bigger sounding' would it make sense to do exactly what I'm already doing with VSL (MIRx presets on everything with natural volume) and just take that entire orchestra, and route it into a single instance of Altiverb 6 to make it, as a whole, 'bigger' in order to make it feel the same 'size' as the EW products?

I hope I'm being more articulate here...

Shawn

Eternal Nube with a passion for all-things VSL.
Posted on Sun, Aug 03 2014 06:03
by hetoreyn
Joined on Sat, Nov 27 2004, Vancouver, British Columbia, Posts 1157

Well .. EW VI's are designed to give you an immediate sound stage, or concert hall sound right out of the box .. no reverb necessary. Which is great if you don't wanna spend time setting up room sound .. as you've notived it is f**king tedious .. but necessary to learn at some point. Anyways, EW has 3 mic positions .. Close, Far and Wide (Or something like that) The point being that you can choose closer recorded sounds if you want a little moe up front sound from EW.

VSL was recorded to be as versatile as possible so it only matters how big you want it to be. To match the EW overall reverb I'd suggest you just use the built in reverb on the VSL VI's and turn it up until it matches that of EW. Without seeing your setup it's impossible to tell you how's best to use MIRx, as those reverbs are particular to VSL and it's VERY hard to describe how you would match it to EW. Basically you've got to use your ears and decide for yourself what sounds best. I'm trying to do the same with MIR these days .. nothing is ever as simple as loading up a new reverb and having it perfect first time.

The most obvious thing you need to do is only process VSL through your reverbs. So that means only using the MIRx, or built in reverbs on the VSL VI's. So don't process the whole song through an altiverb plugin on the master channel or something like that .. you'll just make it obnoxiously big. And as I say .. try using the close mic's sound version of the EW instruments .. which will sound a little clearer. Remember that the MIRx Presets .. and any preset really .. is just a guide .. you're mean't to adjust to fit your requirements. 

Beat Kaufmann has some great tutorials on mixing, reverbing, specializtion etc .. I'd suggest you take a look at his site.

http://www.beat-kaufmann.com

Hetoreyn
http://www.hetoreyn.com

Mac Pro 2013 - 3.5 ghz, 32 Gig RAM (Master)
27 inch iMac i5 2.7 Ghz 16 Gig RAM (Slave)


Pro-Tools 12 (Native), Mbox Pro 3
Logic ProX
Notion SLE

VI Pro, VE Pro, MIR, Vienna Suite, Omnisphere, Slate Digital Plugs.
Posted on Sun, Aug 03 2014 20:55
by civilization 3
Joined on Sat, May 16 2009, SF Bay Area, Posts 1632

Some of the EW orchestral stuff is still completely drenched in their room sound.

RA, otoh can be totally dry. I like at least one of the rooms... But my default position with that thing is reverb OFF.

One issue if you're going to stick with MIRx is placement. It's an issue because you ultimately are going to want to avoid a mush in addition to mixing reverbs. And get into control of reflections. What I like is Vienna Suite Power Panner, a lot of focused or narrow field on solo players and a low % late reflections cross-feed in Hybrid Reverb so the late reflections are focused as per the source. I used to be very shy of reverb.

EWQL SO has a certain sound and I don't really want it at all. (I don't really want any more PLAY engine than RA, which I don't regret buying.)
I demoed MIRx and didn't take to it as some of the placement was just too far off from my own thinking and habits. IME, these particular two things would clash. But it's up to you what you think sounds right, you know. I personally don't think MIRx/EWQL big room/and trying to drown the problem in Altiverb is a great idea.

MacBook Pro 15,1: 2.9 GHz 6-core i9
32GB 2400MHz DDR4
OSX 10.14.5
VE Pro 7
Posted on Tue, Aug 05 2014 00:58
by BachRules
Joined on Sun, Mar 30 2014, Posts 360
shawngibson wrote:
As they say on the internet...halp! lol

Unless you post a sample of the sounds you're dealing with, you can only hope for advice based on people's guesses about what you're hearing. Describing a sound as "large" leaves me with little idea what you're talking about. If you still don't want to post your work, you could still make an audio demo showing the sounds involved, without attempts to be artistic. 

shawngibson wrote:

Yeah, I agree. Sorry for the completely incoherent attempt at humour:(

Your humor disability isn't the problem here; the problem is your never conveying the audio issue. This could mean anything:

shawngibson wrote:
... 'get along' with the 'larger' sounding... 'bigger sounding'... 'bigger'... 'size'
Who are you even quoting? I'd have to know who the people who said that are, and then I'd need to read their minds to hear the audio characterized by the words they used. Just post some audio showing the issue, please?
Posted on Tue, Aug 05 2014 21:58
by Shawn Gibson
Joined on Tue, Sep 23 2008, Toronto, Posts 187

>Who are you even quoting?

Not a quote...I use quotes like that when I don't really know if it's the right word. 

You guys win, I realize I can't ask much if you can't hear what the problem is...so here is a snippet. I just opened a soundcloud account so I hope this works.

All VSL is at master level of 100, MIRx/natural volume/pre-eq, The erhu is right out of EW, with a master volume of 69:

https://soundcloud.com/shawngibson1969/erhu-issue

Eternal Nube with a passion for all-things VSL.
Posted on Tue, Aug 05 2014 22:14
by BachRules
Joined on Sun, Mar 30 2014, Posts 360
shawngibson wrote:

>Who are you even quoting?

Not a quote...I use quotes like that when I don't really know if it's the right word. 

You guys win, I realize I can't ask much if you can't hear what the problem is...so here is a snippet. I just opened a soundcloud account so I hope this works:

All VSL is at master level of 100, MIXx/natural volume/pre-eq, The erhu is right out of EW, with a master volume of 69:

https://soundcloud.com/shawngibson1969/erhu-issue

Thank you. Listening on my headphones, I agree it could benefit from changes in relative spatialization / reverb on the parts. I'm a novice so I hope others will advise you. If they don't, I'll give it my best.

Posted on Tue, Aug 05 2014 22:35
by Shawn Gibson
Joined on Tue, Sep 23 2008, Toronto, Posts 187

Thanks. I still haven't figured out how to manipulate the erhu expression map, it's a bit wonky. Some of the wierd slides and phrases are just...goofy (I copy/pasted/tweaked a VSL Solo Violin part).

I forgot to mention that I'm also using Imperial, which of course is not MIRx. That kind of set the tone for everything (even though the real tone is hopefully set by Chamber Strings...which I don't think you can hear this far into the song).

With the intro I was kind of going for a Lamb Lies Down on Broadway meets RK Cappricio Espagnol sort of thing...arpeggios and solos and some farting thingies. And Glenn Gould warming up:) And of course, I have no idea how to play any of those pieces:(

Eternal Nube with a passion for all-things VSL.
Posted on Wed, Aug 06 2014 04:08
by civilization 3
Joined on Sat, May 16 2009, SF Bay Area, Posts 1632

I didn't hear any overwhelming wetness, which with 'natural volume' at least on the Vienna things is no surprise. If anything there is no sense of a room, really.

Part of this will belong to SC and its 128kbps stream, but overall there is a sort of dullness to tone.
The main thing I would say to you is find some way to narrow the field of the instruments, it's all more or less taking up the same space, it almost comes across as a mono recording. What I do is use Vienna Suite Power Panner, so solo instruments I typically define a very narrow space; which makes it stand out quite a lot more. I never did find the money for MIR Pro but I use the Hybrid Reverb in VS. There is a crossfeed setting per the tail which at 0% makes these later reflections completely local to how you define it going in; of course @100% it's completely diffuse.

The erhu is a bit swallowed by the piano, which would be addressed at once by focusing it. Are you using VE Pro? It has a power panner (which means the 'pan law' is specifically addressed), though less control than the plugin in VS. If not, what host? EG., in Cubase there is a way to make this work.

MacBook Pro 15,1: 2.9 GHz 6-core i9
32GB 2400MHz DDR4
OSX 10.14.5
VE Pro 7
Posted on Wed, Aug 06 2014 13:38
by Shawn Gibson
Joined on Tue, Sep 23 2008, Toronto, Posts 187
Thanks...I'll just reply quickly here since I'm at work and have no paragraphs (plain text...enhanced doesn't work here). I pulled VEP5 from my EW products because there were a lot of crashes (Cubase 6.5.5). So I use Play directly as a VST now (and my slave computer uses VEP5 with all VSL products). I do have Suite available so I can experiment with it for panning and tightening up the EW instruments, especially anything 'solo' (I'll be adding more Ra and Silk instruments to what is otherwise a fairly standard Western...VSL...orchestra). I absolutely have to come to grips with all this speak of tails and reflections because it seems crucial to developing a space, and I simply don't understand these things. Time for a bunch of YouTube tutorials:)
Eternal Nube with a passion for all-things VSL.
Posted on Tue, Aug 26 2014 00:21
by johnstaf
Joined on Thu, Apr 21 2011, EI, Posts 203

I love natural volume. If I need something to stand out I increase the velocity instead of using the faders. That way the balance is always natural. If the erhu were a VSL instrument using naturl volume, it probably wouldn't be very audible at all against the other instruments. It also needs more reverb as it sounds like it's playing in a dry room. Perhaps you can experiment with velocities MIDI Modifier slider in Cubase, and also try different reverb settings to see if that improves things. I have RA but I never use the erhu, (I use Silk instead), so I don't really know what's possible with it.

Cubase (OS agnostic). Various VSL bits and pieces.

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