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Hi Michael,
With interest I've listened to the Barber Adagio. Such a wonderful piece of music. It's so incredibly rich in emotion and tension, that it's almost impossible to catch it in samples. Anyway, a daring enterprise to use this composition and you did pretty well. But there are a few remarks.
I noticed that you use Notion 5 (which I work with too). Notion is a great program with lots of performing capabilities, a blessing but a disadvantage at the same time. Notion doesn't deal with VSL full version (only with SE). That means that you have to edit all articulations and that it the presets aren't of any use. So you can program new rules or use key switches. These must be very detailed to cover all the necessary articulations and techniques in the Adagio. Notion mainly uses the sustains in all sorts of lengths. And that's exactly what I've heard in your version. The legato passages are in fact interrupted sustains and not real legatos. The small pauses between slurred notes give away the used patches. They seem to be tied by the fat reverb, melting everything together and destroying the delicate details of the strings. That's a pity. Another small shortcoming is the musical mix. The thematic line is sometimes burried under accompaniment and again the heavy reverb.
I would advise to diminish the ensemble, reduce the overall reverb and tail, and use convolution reverb instead (close, shorter tail, clear setting of the sections and instruments) to add more realism and better detail. I'm sure it would give more 'air' and transparance to the piece.
Thanks for sharing!
Max
Max, thanks for your thoughtful reply and encouragement. It's always great to meet other Notion users out there. This level of feedback is very, very helpful.
I used the basic Notion presets for SE to develop my own presets for DS. I've checked the presets that I'm using for legato (slurs); they use perf-legato_vib patches, crossfading to sus_vib. Would you recommend different patches?
Michael
Hi Michael,
I understand your problem. It is the path of every beginning sample user.
The issue is double here: first there is the instrumetal and orchestral technique (how should an orchestra/instrument really sound) and next the question about the realisation of that sound with samples.
The best way to deal with question one is to listen to various good recordings, trying to define the playing techniques and the orchestral sound for yourself. What do I hear, how do they play a particular phrase, how is the orchestra divided into sections, where is the place of the sections/individual player...?
Next to all that, the best way to get to know the many articulations is to really play with them in the VI standalone version. Load different patches (not presets) per string instrument/section and listen carefully to them. What do they do, how do they perform? Which technique is best fit for...? (With that I mean that a particular technique is not necessarily what it says. E.g. is a staccato the only application to play a staccato or could I use a spiccato instead, or a short détaché or whatever...? Sometimes a mix of various patches can give a better result (with slot X-fading). That implies that you have to study the functions of the VI (pro) instance.
Apart from the two points above, there's Notion. It works pretty well (but limited) together with VSL-SE, but not with the full versions. Moreover, when you use VE(pro), the preset rules don't function anymore, since VE puts all the samples outside Notion. Writing your own rules is very difficult and time consuming (I couldn't realise any so far). An easier way is to work with keyswitches. Here's a brief summary how to do this:
Hi mjmyers60
Congratulation for your music example over all.
The idea to mix the dimension strings with a further library is a good one. The dimensions do not have the dense sound you probably want to have with the barber. I'm thinking so a s well.
Nevertheless, combining it with the solostrings doesn't really solve the "problem" because they add not more dense.
If you can I would add the Appassionatas. After that you could probably reduce the tail of reverb - as Max mentioned above.
Another point which you should observe:
When the final mix is bounced you should always "master" it.
That means "trying to get out the very best of your track". This will lead to a sound which goes well with most of the speaker systems.
What I currently hear on my monitors with your barber is a "blowed up" mid-low frequency range.
This could depend on your system. Maybe it sounds good with your monitors but I can tell you, that this mid-low range is (far) too much enhanced.
As Max mentioned as well: Use "reverences" and compare them with your mix.
Fortunately it exists a Barber Adagio (done by VSL) with samples.
So compare those sound with yours. Use then an EQ for reducing the mid-low range until your piece is going to sound similar to the reverence through your monitors or headphones.
By the way one should do this procedure always until one has enough experience or one can say: "My piece is the reference!" 😉
Go on your way and collect experiences in using samples and audio effects.
I wish you a lot of success and the power to keep patient.
Beat Kaufmann
Max, Beat, thanks for your helpful replies. I've taken another cut at it. I've adjusted the decay of the string samples in VI Pro to address the issue with legato, Max. I found that I liked the samples and the presets, and that what was happening was that the tempo is so slow that I needed to stretch the decay of the strings, (also the attack somewhat) to alow the presets to do what they needed to in the legato passages. I've also swapped out the solo strings for the appassionata, Beat, as you suggested. I may, however, go back and introduce solo strings as well; most of the reference recordings I've listened to seem to have one or two players that stand out from the balance of the sections and add individual interest against the sections. I might also play with the volume settings of one or two of the dimension players in each section. Additionally, I addressed some volume issues which were creating some wierd artifacts in the strong passages, and adjusted the reverb.
Here's a link; feedback on this second take is of course very welcome.
https://soundcloud.com/tensivity/adagio-for-strings-op-11-8-22-14-take-2
Thanks!
Michael
Hi Michael
[Y] [Y] [Y]
Unfortunately I can not compare this new version with the old one but you had possibility. It is probably a huge difference isn't it?
In any case: I'm very happy with this result and I hope you are as well.
I may, however, go back and introduce solo strings as well;.. This would probably bring back a bit of the shiny sound which strings also can have.
Noise: I believe you used several times some room noise or what ever. In my opinion the noise dominates too much the music.... It sound like
a bad recording - recorded with a tapedeck. It could be that this amount of noise covers the shiny components of the strings as well...
What do you think?
All the best
Beat
Hi Michael,
Finally I found the time to reply.
First I have to appologize that I underestimated your Notion skills. You are able to program your own presets! I wish I could do that. I've tried it many times, but in vain (I couldn't open the SE presets to improve or change them). But as I said, the keyswitches are a great help together with the VO Pro instances.
Now, I've listened to your second version, which is indeed a lot better. Still I miss a little bit of brightness in the strings and I experience the reverb as heavy. This might be a matter of taste, but I prefer a transparent light ensemble for such a delicate piece of high standard music, so that every single part speaks for itself and gets the attention it requires in the flow of the composition. It certainly would help when you added some dimension strings to the sections to bring some more relief into the section sound.
But as a whole, you've done a terrific job, and for those who don't know Notion (or any other notation program), a hell of a job to enter all the performance details needed for such a narrative rich piece of sublime music.
[Y][Y][Y][B]
Max
Max, thanks for the compliments, and the beer! [8-|]
I am not a Notion wonk by any means, although I think the program gets too little credit compared to it's older cousins. It's a terrific program that allows me to get performances from a piece of notation, not just playback. I've done a fair amount of tweaking of the presets, but I haven't written custom rules. I'd like to dig into that but I am curently having too much fun hearing the program perform.
For my strings, I've taken the original Notion presets and replaced the patches with corresponding DImension Strings patches in the VI Pro editor. It's tedious but after a couple of hours work you can replace all the patches. It doesn't really require any coding of the preset rules, just replacement of patch for patch in the VI Pro editor. I then created groups for each of the divisi groups in the string sections.
Reverb is the toughest issue for me. I can't capture that perfect heavenly balance of initial delicacy and detail along with a beautiful rich deep tail that I hear in so many reference recordings. I'm beginning to feel like I'm searching for some sort of unattanable Holy Grail...
Most of the reference recordings that I listen to seem to be set in very deep rich halls. Even small ensembles or quartets that I listen to have the initial delicacy of a close mic but seem to have a very deep rich bloom of reverb tail behind them.
Michael
Hi Michael
Unfortunately I can not compare this new version with the old one but you had possibility. It is probably a huge difference isn't it?
In any case: I'm very happy with this result and I hope you are as well.
I may, however, go back and introduce solo strings as well;.. This would probably bring back a bit of the shiny sound which strings also can have.
Noise: I believe you used several times some room noise or what ever. In my opinion the noise dominates too much the music.... It sound like
a bad recording - recorded with a tapedeck. It could be that this amount of noise covers the shiny components of the strings as well...
What do you think?
All the best
Beat
Beat, thanks! I am pretty happy with the result, although I've never met an artist yet who said "I'm done with that work."
I do have room tone recorded in the piece generated from MIR Pro. I like a bit of room tone to set a floor for recordings, which I think adds a certain realism. I'll re-examine it in this case. You have very good ears or very good monitors! And I guess both...
Thanks for all your feedback and your time.
Michael
P Paul moved this topic from Orchestration & Composition on
