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DS - I probably never heard the "Dimension"
Last post Thu, Oct 16 2014 by johnstaf, 83 replies.
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Posted on Thu, Aug 28 2014 21:16
by Beat Kaufmann
Joined on Fri, Jan 03 2003, Switzerland/Brugg, Posts 1763

Hi all

I do not own the DS.

So I just produced a short piece for showing mixing matters and used the "Chamber Strings" Library and added two solo String instruments for each track - one with the original pitch and one pitched up - and I am very happy with the result.

Then I rembered that this could be a nice job for the DS library. How would it sound with DS?

But I must say I believe that I never heard such a DS-Demo... so I have no idea.

If I understand the right way: The Dimension Violins for example are coming with 8 solo violins which all could be played individual...

...but with all demos I make out that obviously the library is used as we are using the chamber- or orchestra library.

So my questions

Can some body publish a DS-Demo ...

A) ...which shows all 8 violins individual triggered or even played with individual articulations?

B) ...which shows the difference "single triggered / multiple trigered"  and/or  "one articulation for all/ multiple articulations?

C) ...which uses this multiple technique with the whole orchestra?

D) ...only using some algo reverb or no reverb. I only know the DS-Demos through MIR. Because MIR is an effect it could be that the DS sound completely new without MIR...?

Thanks in advance

Beat

PS.

I am not interested in divisi-demos (two or more different voices).

I would like "unison-ensemble-demos" of DS which ares playing not very precise and more individual than the chambers do (and without using MIR - if possible).

...the promissed main advantage of DS - so to say.

www.musik-produktion-createc.ch (Konzertaufnahmen, Musik mit Samples)
at www.beat-kaufmann.com : MIXING an ORCHESTRA - TUTORIAL
Posted on Thu, Aug 28 2014 23:10
by Vlzmusic
Joined on Wed, Jul 11 2012, Posts 31
Greetings Beat!

Though I am sorry for not being able to offer the kind of demos you are waiting for, I feel like presenting you my own understanding of DS tech, and what it does for me personally (I cannot claim any special understanding of this matter, of course, just my own views).

You mention using different articulations for different players. It can be done in DS, but I do not see it as a path to better string sound - why should some of "my violinists" see things much different from others? Instead, I see the blessing of individual mics in subtle humanizing of the same articulation, which in turn creates, in my view, a much more smooth "sound picture" of that ensemble, without the jumps, bumps, and tear in the phrasing and note transitions.

Thats where, for me, Mir/Mirx comes into picture as well - I just sense it contributes to the natural flow of the room perception from listening point of view, so I never leave DS without it.

One of the "magic" sides of both DB and DS for me, is the natural mic spill inherent in the sound of each player. In my perception, it makes a world of difference between Dimension approach, and adding solo recordings together - thats why I feel the need to preserve the initial recorded "feel" by choosing the same articulation for all, knowing that was the way they recorded it, and the spill adds up. I would never use DS soloist on its own - of course it sounds "phasy", as there are other players around him, and you can clearly hear that in his personal mic as well.

All I can present currently, is a humble Violas tryout I have made for myself, the moment they were released. Pretty much out of the box, just DS+Mir. I would be glad to show more, so maybe if you could land me some score extract etc. and that might be even more relevant for you.

http://vlzmusic.bandcamp.com/track/dimension-violas-tryout

Vlad.
Posted on Fri, Aug 29 2014 02:42
by Beat Kaufmann
Joined on Fri, Jan 03 2003, Switzerland/Brugg, Posts 1763

Hi Vlzmusic

Thanks for your answer...

Fine that you like the Dimension Strings. But then you probably don't know the other libraries. They sound beautiful as well...

I would like to get an even more realistic sounding orchestra than this (chamberstrings combined with the solo strings).Therefore I am interested in a piece of orchestra, played with DS with the possible individual play of each player. Does DS make the next step to the reality or does it sound "only" different because of an other sound?

Further: I don't like MIR really because it often sounds a bit boxy and I also want to be free in adjusting the depth for each instrument/section to my taste (by mixing the conventional way).

That's why I would like to hear the DS-Strings without any effect - Just one time after waiting on such a demo for more than a year now.

When I watch the official DS-Video I see that each violin (viola, cello,bass) player already comes with individual articulations.

Then the video shows two very short examples how it would sound when all of those players are played seperately (individual triggered).

That's the sound I would like to hear now but with the whole orchestra and with a real piece of music -if possible without MIR so that I can hear the real sound of the Dimension Strings.

When I listen to the demos (demo section) I can't make out any piece which sounds as we got it in the video...

Take this official demo for example : Where are all these 25 individual players...? It sounds more than one player per section...

So this thread is probably more for advanced users who are using the possible "Dimensions" of the DS-Library.

Nevertheless, thanks for your effort, VSLmusic! Could be that you don't know until now that you have a Ferrari but you always drive it only with 30km/h ;-)

I want to know the real potential of the DS-Library. That's why I'm asking for the demos above.

All the best.and a lot of success with the DS

Beat

www.musik-produktion-createc.ch (Konzertaufnahmen, Musik mit Samples)
at www.beat-kaufmann.com : MIXING an ORCHESTRA - TUTORIAL
Posted on Fri, Aug 29 2014 03:19
by BachRules
Joined on Sun, Mar 30 2014, Posts 360

Beat, this is another response that doesn't meet your criteria, because I don't have time for now, though I'll try to give you what you're asking for later if I get time. In this, I'm sending the same MIDI to all 8 violins, but I'm processing the 8 audio outputs separately, since that's something you can't do with Chamber:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/...bmNUeVk/edit?usp=sharing

It is MIR-free. Nor did I use Altiverb set to Vienna Konzerthaus, since that hall is shaped like a shoebox, and I get the feeling you might not like accurate simulations of shoebox-shaped spaces.

Posted on Fri, Aug 29 2014 07:57
by Vlzmusic
Joined on Wed, Jul 11 2012, Posts 31
Hi again Beat!

You sound like you are trying not to hurt my feelings or something - well, thanks, first of all :). Second - I understand your need, as a very respectable and long active VSL user to see the justice in DS hype. Now - I own both Chamber and Solo, I love them. I use Hollywood Strings, EWQLSO and love them - so no case of "Oh!- I love it, cause I paid a fortune to get it, and it will be my main thing from now own".

I am sorry, but I fail to see the "Ferrari" of DS, being the exotic abilities to play differently within an ensemble (fail to see that need altogether, if no divisi lines concerned.) I do love the luxury within DS to shape pretty much any ensemble you want, make them blend well, sound consistent and cohesive, be positioned differently and all, and frankly I cannot justify (for myself) the added workflow of actually playing in 25 takes - I know it can be done for great results, but I don`t see the special need. Workflow is also important for me.

Not to forget, that DS is much more recent in terms of detail - it sports 4 velocities across most of it articulations - and the legato ones really gain from that, if you are used to the original 2.

Anyway, I liked your extract, but it is very specific setting, and I can`t help but see it as an orange in apples discussion, with the solos being so upfront. If we would go Chamber head to head with the same amount of DS players - I am definite DS would win, for the reasons mentioned earlier - less interrupted "recorded ensemble" perception, and smoother behavior overall (and I do love Chamber in many ways) By the way, I really don`t like the DS demos from the product page. I bought it relying on my understanding of the great tech and potential - and it never failed me.

So - I guess I`ll just make a classical mock-up this weekend, to present it both with and without MIR, to show my point, that you don`t have to go exotics with DS to enjoy its qualities.

Vlad.
Posted on Fri, Aug 29 2014 12:16
by Beat Kaufmann
Joined on Fri, Jan 03 2003, Switzerland/Brugg, Posts 1763

Hello again as well, Vlad.

Thanks for your kind response. Nothing against your favourite library and also nothing against your favourite room and mixing system.

Keep it, use it, love it.

All the rest is of course a matter of taste: distant orchestra, close orchestra - unfortunately discussions always end in this never ending "impass".

About the "Ferrari for shopping": Each articulation seems to come 8times or more with DS (one for each player) in case of the violins.

But it seems to me that most of the users only use them as one sound. So, having tonnes of samples on board but only using them always as one sound brought me to the comparison with the Ferrari and 30km/h... maybe a bit a daring comparison, sorry, but it probably contains a core of truth.

Once more: Watch the DS-video please http://www.vsl.co.at/videoplayer_mp4.asp?ID=304. from 04:30...

Now we changed 1000 words and I didn't get a demo...

I don't want to discuss about libraries and effects...

I only hope to listen to a string piece which contains obviously the big advantage of the Dimensions: The individual play of each musician in unison.

I would like a demo...because I never heard such a piece with the "Dimension" of DS.

Thanks

Beat

www.musik-produktion-createc.ch (Konzertaufnahmen, Musik mit Samples)
at www.beat-kaufmann.com : MIXING an ORCHESTRA - TUTORIAL
Posted on Fri, Aug 29 2014 12:59
by BachRules
Joined on Sun, Mar 30 2014, Posts 360
Beat Kaufmann wrote:
... 

Why do you consider that advantage to be the obviously big one? To me the obvious advantage is the ability to process the audio output from each violin separately. In a different context, you seem to appreciate this advantage:

Beat Kaufmann wrote:
... I ... want to be free in adjusting the depth for each instrument... to my taste (by mixing the conventional way).

But as your Chambers don't allow you to do that, you overlook the obvious advantage provided by DS in that respect.

Posted on Fri, Aug 29 2014 13:44
by Beat Kaufmann
Joined on Fri, Jan 03 2003, Switzerland/Brugg, Posts 1763

Hi BachRules

Thanks for your answers.

But, dear BachRules, I am since 1975 in the midi business and since 2003 (power) user of VSL samples. So believe me, I know, what I'm looking for...

BachRules wrote:
Beat Kaufmann wrote:
... 

Why do you consider that advantage to be the obviously big one? To me the obvious advantage is the ability to process the audio output from each violin separately. In a different context, you seem to appreciate this advantage:

... True for you, but I'm not interested in this feature. Let's record the fact here, that the DS-Library has a lot positive and big features... but...

For me the only advantage could be this individual-playing-feature, because I am very happy with all the other string libraries and I can do a lot with them.

BachRules wrote:
Beat Kaufmann wrote:
... I ... want to be free in adjusting the depth for each instrument... to my taste (by mixing the conventional way).

But as your Chambers don't allow you to do that, you overlook the obvious advantage provided by DS in that respect.

1. I could route every VI to another output within my DAW if necessary... (16 outputs, with my everday AudioInterface / 192 Outputs with my madi system).

2. You missed the context ... I gave this answer  because I don't want demos "trough" MIR because I love to mix the conventional way and not with an automatic mixing system.

Unfortuately even more words and even less demos ... sad.

Once more

I don't want to discuss libraries, techniques, effects, 

I only would like to get a DS orchestra demo

played with the individual trigger mode,

please, please please!!!

A link is enough

This seems to be an unrealizable wish...Sad

Sorry my impatience.

Beat

www.musik-produktion-createc.ch (Konzertaufnahmen, Musik mit Samples)
at www.beat-kaufmann.com : MIXING an ORCHESTRA - TUTORIAL
Posted on Fri, Aug 29 2014 14:03
by BachRules
Joined on Sun, Mar 30 2014, Posts 360

Beat Kaufmann wrote:
Can some body publish a DS-Demo ...

A) ...which shows all 8 violins individual triggered

Sorry if you already know this, but when you send the same MIDI data to all 8 Dimension violins, each violin gets triggered with different "Humanize" settings. In other words, the time-randomization and tuning randomization are different for each violin. That could be considered "individual triggering", depending on semantics.

Posted on Fri, Aug 29 2014 14:06
by andyjh
Joined on Wed, Dec 15 2010, Posts 600

It seems odd that no one seems to have grasped what Beat is asking for here,

One of the first things I did with Dimension strings, was to play the same thing eight times, each to a dimension player. It is a long winded way of doing things,  but that is how a real orchestra play, so it seemed to me the best way to do it.

How ever it did take a long time to do this, and when you do a similar thing with playing once and using VI Pro to randomize timing for each player, it also gets close to the same effect.

My recording unfortuanaley for Beat,  was processed through MIR, so I can't offer a dry demo either, 

but I do think Beat's request for a dry multi played layer demo is a reasonable request.

Posted on Fri, Aug 29 2014 14:09
by BachRules
Joined on Sun, Mar 30 2014, Posts 360
Beat Kaufmann wrote:
BachRules wrote:
Beat Kaufmann wrote:
... I ... want to be free in adjusting the depth for each instrument... to my taste (by mixing the conventional way).

But as your Chambers don't allow you to do that, you overlook the obvious advantage provided by DS in that respect.

1. I could route every VI to another output within my DAW if necessary... (16 outputs, with my everday AudioInterface / 192 Outputs with my madi system).

You're talking about routing VI's separately, but I'm talking about routing violins separately. I can put the 8 Dimension violins in different positions in a virtual room (not MIR, since you don't want that), and they all reflect off the walls at different times, since they're in different positions, and the left and right mics in a virtual Decca-tree capture the sounds at different times. You cannot do this with Chamber, even if you route your VI's separately.

Posted on Fri, Aug 29 2014 14:12
by BachRules
Joined on Sun, Mar 30 2014, Posts 360
andyjh wrote:

It seems odd that no one seems to have grasped what Beat is asking for here,

I grasp it, but haven't found the time to meet his demands. This thread is still pretty new. I'm not so pessimistic that Beat's demands won't be met eventually.

Posted on Fri, Aug 29 2014 14:28
by Beat Kaufmann
Joined on Fri, Jan 03 2003, Switzerland/Brugg, Posts 1763
BachRules wrote:
You cannot do this with Chamber, even if you route your VI's separately.

OK then, my dear, let's listen to such an orchestra with individual placed players. 

Take A/B, ORTF, a DeccaTree, NOS, DIN, EBS, Surroound...  for me only counts the result.

I want to come as close as possible to those real recordings. And I thought that the DS could go a step further. 

But all the Demos don't show a really step foreward. Quite the oposit, I don't like the sound (MIR?) and when the are syncronized the sound not realy how an ensemble.

But I'm repeating my self - words words words but obviously no demo.

www.musik-produktion-createc.ch (Konzertaufnahmen, Musik mit Samples)
at www.beat-kaufmann.com : MIXING an ORCHESTRA - TUTORIAL
Posted on Fri, Aug 29 2014 14:39
by Beat Kaufmann
Joined on Fri, Jan 03 2003, Switzerland/Brugg, Posts 1763
andyjh wrote:
How ever it did take a long time to do this, and when you do a similar thing with playing once and using VI Pro to randomize timing for each player, it also gets close to the same effect.

Hi Andy

This is really a good hint.

Even if I am a trained user I still need 1day for 1 minute of music (average).

So this means that I will use a lot more time for eventually a bit more reality.

Thanks, and yes it seems that nobody had the patience to produce a piece which obviously uses a much more effort.

Best

Beat

www.musik-produktion-createc.ch (Konzertaufnahmen, Musik mit Samples)
at www.beat-kaufmann.com : MIXING an ORCHESTRA - TUTORIAL
Posted on Fri, Aug 29 2014 15:00
by BachRules
Joined on Sun, Mar 30 2014, Posts 360
Beat Kaufmann wrote:
BachRules wrote:
You cannot do this with Chamber, even if you route your VI's separately.

OK then, my dear, let's listen to such an orchestra with individual placed players. 

Take A/B, ORTF, a DeccaTree, NOS, DIN, EBS, Surroound...  for me only counts the result.

I want to come as close as possible to those real recordings. And I thought that the DS could go a step further. 

But all the Demos don't show a really step foreward. Quite the oposit, I don't like the sound (MIR?) and when the are syncronized the sound not realy how an ensemble.

MIR essentially simulates the sound recorded by a coincident microphone-pair (e.g., Blumlein pair); in other words an instrument on the left will sound louder on MIR's left output channel than on MIR's right output channel, but it will sound in both channels at the exact same time. This is my interpretation of Deitz's explanation here:

http://community.vsl.co.at/foru...37692/229850.aspx#229850

This scheme is one of various options. It has some advantages (e.g., focussed image, channels staying in phase); but if you want something which sounds like it's recorded from a Decca tree, MIR won't do that, since Decca-tree mics are separated in space, capturing sounds at different times.

But that is MIR, and DS is not the same as MIR. When I want to simulate 8 violins spread around the stage, recorded through a Decca tree, I don't use MIR, but I don't use Chamber either, since Chamber doesn't let me separate the violins as well as DS does. I use DS to get 8 separate violins, and I process them through spatialization software designed to simulate a spaced mic array. This is where the DS design is a real advantage for me, compared with Chamber.

Also, this other point I mentioned previously is important, important to me at least:

BachRules wrote:
when you send the same MIDI data to all 8 Dimension violins, each violin gets triggered with different "Humanize" settings. In other words, the time-randomization and tuning randomization are different for each violin. That could be considered "individual triggering"....
As a result of this feature, even if I send the same MIDI to all 8 violins, I will never get the same sound twice, because each time the timing and tuning will be randomized in a different way. Of course this is not an option with Chamber, as the violins in that ensemble have their timings and tunings locked together in the samples.
Posted on Fri, Aug 29 2014 17:05
by Tralen
Joined on Sat, May 08 2010, Brasil, Posts 59

Greetings,

I share Beat's position on DS, and would like to hear a demo which depicts clearly the aforementioned aspects of the product. Most demos I found worked in disservice for DS, because I believe they were made with the intention of showcasing its overall sound. However, more experienced users usually expect a technical demonstration, and I think that is lacking in sound form. 

Posted on Fri, Aug 29 2014 17:25
by BachRules
Joined on Sun, Mar 30 2014, Posts 360

Beat Kaufmann wrote:
... Can some body publish a DS-Demo ...

A) ...which shows all 8 violins individual triggered or even played with individual articulations?

Can you recommend any particular pieces where Bach scored 8 different articulations for 8 violins playing in unison? If I understand your request correctly? If not Bach, then Beethoven?

Posted on Fri, Aug 29 2014 17:44
by herb
Joined on Mon, Aug 05 2002, Posts 4622
Tralen wrote:

Greetings,

I share Beat's position on DS, and would like to hear a demo which depicts clearly the aforementioned aspects of the product. Most demos I found worked in disservice for DS, because I believe they were made with the intention of showcasing its overall sound. However, more experienced users usually expect a technical demonstration, and I think that is lacking in sound form. 

Hi Tralen,

maybe this video is helpful for you. (the part from TC 4:20 to 5:30)

http://www.vsl.co.at/videoplayer_mp4.asp?ID=304

best

Herb

Posted on Fri, Aug 29 2014 18:31
by Beat Kaufmann
Joined on Fri, Jan 03 2003, Switzerland/Brugg, Posts 1763
BachRules wrote:
Can you recommend any particular pieces where Bach scored 8 different articulations

No restrictions. Bach, Mozart, Haydn what ever... 

Beat

www.musik-produktion-createc.ch (Konzertaufnahmen, Musik mit Samples)
at www.beat-kaufmann.com : MIXING an ORCHESTRA - TUTORIAL
Posted on Fri, Aug 29 2014 19:19
by BachRules
Joined on Sun, Mar 30 2014, Posts 360
Beat Kaufmann wrote:

I'm not about to make anything that sounds close to that, and few here are, regardless of their choice of libraries; and you already knew that. So I'm not going to try to compare to that, but if you want to post a short, simple example of Chamber violins (or some other Chamber instrument, but just one, please), sticking to one and only one articulation, I'll try to make a DS version of what you post. Otherwise, it's going to be a question of who's better at programming articulations, which seems irrelevant for all present intents and purposes.

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