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Samples inconsistencies regarding different articlulations
Last post Tue, Nov 18 2014 by nektarios, 40 replies.
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Posted on Tue, Nov 11 2014 21:07
by pudik
Joined on Wed, Sep 10 2014, USA, Posts 21

DG & Hellfire:

1. I completely agree that for good rendition samples have to be tweaked to death. However, that there is no "wickedly expensive" software that adds in the endeavor, just look at Melodyne (sp?) or even more so Altiverb. For who has that kind of money if he is a student or even someone who makes decent amount of money and has a family. That's completely discretionary expenditure affordable to the like of Hans Zimmer but not the average guy. Here too, yes, we have to work at making samples usable to our liking (depending on what sound image one has in his head). But that doesn't mean that samples shouldn't come with decent sound out of the box. How would it be if one buys an electronic piano and first thing he/she would have to do every morning to tune it and then adjust every one of the 88 notes (they are of course ROM samples) spending a few hours till they sound like a piano? I wonder how many of those pianos would be sold and how much time would remain for practice.

2. Bow noise is a built in parameter into the sound of every stringed (bowed) instrument. Without it string sound doesn't exist. I am just stating the obvious. But when samples are recorded this bow noise seems to become background noise or at least this is what I hear. I call this "Schmirgelklang" that is, the background noise sounds like fine sand paper pulled on a thicker aluminum slab, or, if I were to put it in harsher terms, like a shovel pulled over gravel. I can also compare it to the background noise on the tracks of old movies when the track on the celluloid begins to deteriorate. I've never heard a group of sample violins in a sweeping melodic line without their being harsh, discontinuous, with granulated sound. And, even the noise is discontinuous because every sound has its own noise. It's like a mathematical function with lots of holes, or a road with many almost consecutive pot holes.

It's pretty interesting that the noise is so evident (again, to me) and everyone is asking me with astonishment: "What noise, John?" Oh, no... I am not confusing white noise with bow noise. I kind of know my stuff around instruments. I need also to mention that I don't intend to have an antagonistic discussion but an exchange of opinion. After all, it's my ear and the sound image in my head; both pretty good though :))
Thanks for your feedback,
Cheers, John.

PS: I forgot to answer your writing regarding vibrato for trumpets. It depends. If you take the Soviets playing Russian music, they definitely vibrate. The tone is thick, vibrated and very penetrating in forte. They also use vibrato in piano, cantabile, melodic solo passages. As an example, take the recordings done by the General Union Radio Orchestra (Balshoy Vsesayuzniy Radio Arkyestr) with Nikolay Golovanov such as Skriabin's symphonies or anything else, or Skriabine/Leningrad/Mravinskiy  The Poem of Extasy. But they do not play Wagner with vibrato. 

Orchestras in the West do not make this distinction because most Western trumpet players don't understand that one cannot play Tschaikovskiy like Bruckner, and few conductors would make them aware of this fact. The Russian orchestras after the Fall of the Soviets play more in tune with Western orchestras which is a bit uncharacteristic for Russian music. A good tradition has been thrown out and that's a pitty. But I need trumpet vibrato for my pop writings and not necessarily for symphonic writing. You state "Such vibrato cannot be obtained on the scoring stage" Well, just listen to Harry James or Al Hirt or the trumpeter in the "The Good, the Bad and the Ugly". Some French trumpeters also use vibrato in Debussy, though not by far as rich as that of the Russians. And, all trumpeters, including me, use a bit of vibrato, which by the way technically loosens the lips off of the permanent tension they are under while in contact with the mouthpiece. Oh, I extended myself again. Sorry.

Tags: /
Posted on Tue, Nov 11 2014 21:15
by BachRules
Joined on Sun, Mar 30 2014, Posts 360

Stig Christensen wrote:
staccato part of a Trombone patch: TTB 01_basic

That would be patch

/C -  Brass patches/56 Tenor trombone/01 SHORT + LONG NOTES/01 TTB_staccato

It does do some odd things. Set velocity high, and the 4 four round-robin samples on note D-sharp-4 vary in timbre dramatically. Notes lower than D-sharp-4 have one timbre, and notes higher than D-sharp-4 have a different timbre, with D-sharp-4 itself alternating timbres.

Posted on Tue, Nov 11 2014 22:10
by pudik
Joined on Wed, Sep 10 2014, USA, Posts 21
Melda Productions has a free bundle. In it there is a Vibrato and a Tremolo plugin. The Vibrato app doesn't work for the purpose, but the Tremolo app does, well to a certain extent. Alas, one can hear that the vibrato doesn't come from the structure of the samples, but it's wrapped around them. If you buy the pay version, then you can automate it and presumably vary the vibrato. John.
Posted on Tue, Nov 11 2014 22:26
by JimmyHellfire
Joined on Tue, Dec 24 2013, Posts 335
pudik wrote:
1. I completely agree that for good rendition samples have to be tweaked to death. However, that there is no "wickedly expensive" software that adds in the endeavor, just look at Melodyne (sp?) or even more so Altiverb.

Of course - MIR PRO, Ircam SPAT or Altiverb are very expensive. On the other hand, these complex and powerful tools are manufactured with full-time professionals in mind who ideally generate substantial income through their musical work. Those tools are however certainly not the only means to achieve a satisfying ambient sound, IMO. And they certainly don't guarantee outstanding results by default either.

I personally think that the whole reverb topic is sometimes being over-thought and overcomplicated. There are plenty of more affordable and also easier to use plug-ins and software solutions that can still yield satisfactory results. VSL offers MIRx, which obviously lacks the advanced functions of MIR PRO, but on the other hand delivers fairly similar sonic results with minimum effort and at a very affordable price. It's really a no-brainer. There is also the Vienna Suite - although quite expensive, but on the other hand, not unreasonably so considering the extensive array of high quality tools it offers - with wonderful convolution and hybrid reverbs.

Of course there are also some great plug-ins from other manufacturers -EastWest, ValhallaDSP or 2cAudio come to mind, and those products won't exactly break the bank either. Cubase 7.5 even comes with pretty viable convolution and algorhythmic reverbs (REVerence and the new, still somewhat overlooked, but beautiful REVelation) out of the box.

Posted on Wed, Nov 12 2014 00:08
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608
BachRules wrote:

DG wrote:
... Regarding
using LFO and such devices, VSL produces orchestral sample Collections, not synths, so an LFO vibrato wouldn't be appropriate....

I don't see how LFO vibrato would be so different from any of the other sample-manipulating functions in VI. The Humanize function alters the pitch already, and I don't think of that as inappropriate.

Becuase that is not the ethos of VSL, whether you like it or not.

DG

Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Wed, Nov 12 2014 00:13
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608
pudik wrote:
You state "Such vibrato cannot be
obtained on the scoring stage" Well, just listen to Harry James or Al Hirt or the trumpeter in the "The Good, the Bad and the Ugly".

BTW your post is almost impossible to read, so it might be worth
formatting it better which you can do via Profile/Community/Content Editor/Enhanced.

However, what I was going to say was
you misunderstood my comment. I was saying that recording samples that
can be manipulated in the way SM does is probably not possible with
material recorded on a stage, not that people can't play with vibrato on a scoring stage.

DG

Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Wed, Nov 12 2014 00:23
by BachRules
Joined on Sun, Mar 30 2014, Posts 360
DG wrote:
BachRules wrote:

DG wrote:
... Regarding
using LFO and such devices, VSL produces orchestral sample Collections, not synths, so an LFO vibrato wouldn't be appropriate....

I don't see how LFO vibrato would be so different from any of the other sample-manipulating functions in VI. The Humanize function alters the pitch already, and I don't think of that as inappropriate.

Becuase that is not the ethos of VSL....

How do you know that?

Humanize, which lets you modulate the pitch up and down at a low frequency, is part of VSL's ethos, and VSL finds it appropriate. You're entitled to your opinion about what's appropriate, but I'm not sure VSL agrees with you.

Posted on Wed, Nov 12 2014 00:44
by BachRules
Joined on Sun, Mar 30 2014, Posts 360

DG wrote:
The best Brass product I've heard for
constructing a fake vibrato is Sample Modeling, but that's recorded in
an anechoic chamber and all the dynamics are fake as well. I doubt that this could be achieved using an instrument recorded on a scoring stage.

Here's artificial vibrato applied to non-vibrato samples recorded in a concert hall:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5ZYXb_HdIQhMk1WeXBUVmZKdzg/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/...VmZKdzg/view?usp=sharing

Doesn't sound good, but if someone spent more than 60 seconds on it, maybe. I doubt it would present any difficulty for samples recorded in a silent stage.

I personally am not a fan of Sample Modeling or Friedlander's artificial vibrato, but I still think it has potential.

Posted on Wed, Nov 12 2014 03:39
by johnstaf
Joined on Thu, Apr 21 2011, EI, Posts 216

John,

There are certainly some very expensive plugins available, but I don't think many of them would be a particular advantage with VSL. MIRx is better than Altiverb for processing VSL samples. For a conventional style reverb, QL Spaces is amazing -and not too expensive. The rest of the expensive plugins are unnecessary. They might help shape your sound in a particular direction, but they won't improve the quality of it, and they most certainly won't reduce the amount of work you have to do on your samples.

Cubase (OS agnostic). Various VSL bits and pieces.

Posted on Wed, Nov 12 2014 09:13
by Stig Christensen
Joined on Fri, Mar 18 2005, Denmark, Posts 187

I use a Breath Controller to control the volume of VSL instruments. When the Breath Controller reach 127 it's on max and the sample should be loudest. The patch: 01 TTB_staccato changes dramatically when the volume controller goes from 99 -100. The sound is very edgy and the instrument sounds like it's moved AWAY from the mic - result the sound gets weaker. Result: the Trombone disappears from the mix, when it's supposed to be loudest.

Musicmind (Mind the Music!)
Mac Studio Max 64Gb, PC Slave 64gb, Mac Pro 12 48Gb, MacBookPro, Apollo interface, Universal Audio, Waves 9, NI Komplete 9, VSL, BFD3, Superior, Arturia, Sound Toys, Euphonix MC Mix, Neumann mics, DynAudio, Yamaha + Adam monitors AND Steinway Concert Grand A ;-)
Posted on Wed, Nov 12 2014 17:51
by pudik
Joined on Wed, Sep 10 2014, USA, Posts 21
Thank you, DG, I'll try formatting better. The question is why is this site different from all other sites, which have direct access to editing and not at some hidden arcane page? J.
DG wrote:
pudik wrote:
You state "Such vibrato cannot be
obtained on the scoring stage" Well, just listen to Harry James or Al Hirt or the trumpeter in the "The Good, the Bad and the Ugly".

BTW your post is almost impossible to read, so it might be worth
formatting it better which you can do via Profile/Community/Content Editor/Enhanced.

However, what I was going to say was
you misunderstood my comment. I was saying that recording samples that
can be manipulated in the way SM does is probably not possible with
material recorded on a stage, not that people can't play with vibrato on a scoring stage.

DG

Posted on Wed, Nov 12 2014 17:52
by pudik
Joined on Wed, Sep 10 2014, USA, Posts 21
Indeed, I misunderstood, sorry. J.
DG wrote:
pudik wrote:
You state "Such vibrato cannot be
obtained on the scoring stage" Well, just listen to Harry James or Al Hirt or the trumpeter in the "The Good, the Bad and the Ugly".

BTW your post is almost impossible to read, so it might be worth
formatting it better which you can do via Profile/Community/Content Editor/Enhanced.

However, what I was going to say was
you misunderstood my comment. I was saying that recording samples that
can be manipulated in the way SM does is probably not possible with
material recorded on a stage, not that people can't play with vibrato on a scoring stage.

DG

Posted on Wed, Nov 12 2014 18:27
by pudik
Joined on Wed, Sep 10 2014, USA, Posts 21
johnstaf wrote:

John,

There are certainly some very expensive plugins available, but I don't think many of them would be a particular advantage with VSL. MIRx is better than Altiverb for processing VSL samples. For a conventional style reverb, QL Spaces is amazing -and not too expensive. The rest of the expensive plugins are unnecessary. They might help shape your sound in a particular direction, but they won't improve the quality of it, and they most certainly won't reduce the amount of work you have to do on your samples.

Thank you, Johnstaf.

 

I have more than enough reverb/convolution software. What I am looking for is vibrato. The only libraries I have that react to CC17+Aftertouch are Garritan's Personal Orchestra and JABB. The effect of CC17+Aftertouch is quite good. More over, this combination is prone to automation, so even though sample quality is not stellar, it is enhanced tremendously. 

 

I think that this method should be offered as a choice in the top of the line libraries such as VSL. I mean by this, the possibility that the composer have the coice of using it or not. This won't take away from the reputation of any manufacturer. 

 

In your experience, does MIRx have vibrato automation?

 

Thanks again, John.

Posted on Wed, Nov 12 2014 19:26
by nektarios
Joined on Tue, Nov 19 2013, New Jersey, United States, Posts 489

 MIRx is a reverb (cheaper alternative to MIR Pro). What does that have to do with vibrato?

_____

Cubase 11, Windows 11 @ 128 GB RAM
Dual Intel Xeon E5-2687W @ 3.10GHz
Synchron Strings I (Full)
Synchron Strings Pro (Full)
Synchron Elite Strings (Full)
Synchron Brass
Dimension Strings (Full)
Chamber Strings I+II (Full)
Appassionata Strings I+II (Full)
Orchestral Strings I+II (Full)
Solo Strings I (Full)
Vienna Imperial
Saxophones (Full)
Woodwinds I (Full)
Brass II (Full)
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Overdrive
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Posted on Wed, Nov 12 2014 20:48
by johnstaf
Joined on Thu, Apr 21 2011, EI, Posts 216

John, I'm afraid not. I was replying to your post regarding the need for expensive plugins.

Cubase (OS agnostic). Various VSL bits and pieces.

Posted on Fri, Nov 14 2014 14:41
by pudik
Joined on Wed, Sep 10 2014, USA, Posts 21
JimmyHellfire wrote:
pudik wrote:
1. I completely agree that for good rendition samples have to be tweaked to death. However, that there is no "wickedly expensive" software that adds in the endeavor, just look at Melodyne (sp?) or even more so Altiverb.

Of course - MIR PRO, Ircam SPAT or Altiverb are very expensive. On the other hand, these complex and powerful tools are manufactured with full-time professionals in mind who ideally generate substantial income through their musical work. Those tools are however certainly not the only means to achieve a satisfying ambient sound, IMO. And they certainly don't guarantee outstanding results by default either.

I personally think that the whole reverb topic is sometimes being over-thought and overcomplicated. There are plenty of more affordable and also easier to use plug-ins and software solutions that can still yield satisfactory results. VSL offers MIRx, which obviously lacks the advanced functions of MIR PRO, but on the other hand delivers fairly similar sonic results with minimum effort and at a very affordable price. It's really a no-brainer. There is also the Vienna Suite - although quite expensive, but on the other hand, not unreasonably so considering the extensive array of high quality tools it offers - with wonderful convolution and hybrid reverbs.

Of course there are also some great plug-ins from other manufacturers -EastWest, ValhallaDSP or 2cAudio come to mind, and those products won't exactly break the bank either. Cubase 7.5 even comes with pretty viable convolution and algorhythmic reverbs (REVerence and the new, still somewhat overlooked, but beautiful REVelation) out of the box.

But I am not looking for ambience; I'm looking for vibrato. DG lead me to the Solo C Trumpet's manual which shows all of the articulations that this VSL instrument has. All well and good, but it only gives me 5 different velocities. The question remains: is there smooth gradual vibrato between the velocities? Combined with crescendo, this instrument would suit my needs. J.

Posted on Fri, Nov 14 2014 15:20
by nektarios
Joined on Tue, Nov 19 2013, New Jersey, United States, Posts 489

If you enable "Velocity Cross Fade" you will be able to smoothly transition through the different velocities. Keep in mind, when Velocity xFade is enabled, what value you include in the velocity controller will be ignored, and the value from Velocity xFade (controller CC2) will be taken instead. In the cases where you don't need velocity xFade, you can turn it off and program velocities like you normally do.

Also, if you need to transition between vibrato and non vibrato patches you can use slot xFade (combined with Velocity xFade). Take the non vibrato/vibrato patches and put them in the same slot (one occupies the "a" slot and the other occupies the the "b" slot). With slot xFade you can cross fade between them.

Cheers,

Nektarios

_____

Cubase 11, Windows 11 @ 128 GB RAM
Dual Intel Xeon E5-2687W @ 3.10GHz
Synchron Strings I (Full)
Synchron Strings Pro (Full)
Synchron Elite Strings (Full)
Synchron Brass
Dimension Strings (Full)
Chamber Strings I+II (Full)
Appassionata Strings I+II (Full)
Orchestral Strings I+II (Full)
Solo Strings I (Full)
Vienna Imperial
Saxophones (Full)
Woodwinds I (Full)
Brass II (Full)
Dimension Brass (Full)
Upright Bass
Percussion (Full)
Overdrive
Jazz Drums
Vienna Choir
Soprano Choir
Solo Voices (Full)
Posted on Fri, Nov 14 2014 18:00
by pudik
Joined on Wed, Sep 10 2014, USA, Posts 21
nektarios wrote:

If you enable "Velocity Cross Fade" you will be able to smoothly transition through the different velocities. Keep in mind, when Velocity xFade is enabled, what value you include in the velocity controller will be ignored, and the value from Velocity xFade (controller CC2) will be taken instead. In the cases where you don't need velocity xFade, you can turn it off and program velocities like you normally do.

Also, if you need to transition between vibrato and non vibrato patches you can use slot xFade (combined with Velocity xFade). Take the non vibrato/vibrato patches and put them in the same slot (one occupies the "a" slot and the other occupies the the "b" slot). With slot xFade you can cross fade between them.

Cheers,

Nektarios

Thank you, Nektarios. Very useful advice because I am completely new to VSL. Note taken! J.

Posted on Mon, Nov 17 2014 21:06
by pudik
Joined on Wed, Sep 10 2014, USA, Posts 21

Nektarios: how fast is the fastest vibrato I can obtain with Trumpet C Standard? I need fast. Of course, gradual increase too, but that's mostly for symphonic; for certain genres of pop it needs to be fast in forte. I have melodic lines in Italian style with tinges of Sicilian scales that must come to the listener "in his face". 

Thanks for the info, J.

Posted on Tue, Nov 18 2014 21:20
by nektarios
Joined on Tue, Nov 19 2013, New Jersey, United States, Posts 489

 I don't think I can answer the above question... Sad

_____

Cubase 11, Windows 11 @ 128 GB RAM
Dual Intel Xeon E5-2687W @ 3.10GHz
Synchron Strings I (Full)
Synchron Strings Pro (Full)
Synchron Elite Strings (Full)
Synchron Brass
Dimension Strings (Full)
Chamber Strings I+II (Full)
Appassionata Strings I+II (Full)
Orchestral Strings I+II (Full)
Solo Strings I (Full)
Vienna Imperial
Saxophones (Full)
Woodwinds I (Full)
Brass II (Full)
Dimension Brass (Full)
Upright Bass
Percussion (Full)
Overdrive
Jazz Drums
Vienna Choir
Soprano Choir
Solo Voices (Full)
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