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  4. Dietz, for Natural Volume, how to set VI Pro Vol?

  • Dietz, for Natural Volume, how to set VI Pro Vol?

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    If I start a new instance of VI Pro and load Patch:

    /B -  Woodwind patches/32 Flute I/10 PERF INTERVAL/01 FL1_perf-legato,

    I see that VI Pro Vol (the parameter associated with CC7) defaults to 127. On the other hand, if I start a new instance of VI Pro and load Preset:

    /B - Woodwind   PRESET - Files/32 Flute I/FL1 VSL Preset Level 1,

    I see that VI Pro Vol defaults to 118.

    To use MIR's Natural Volume correctly, how should I set VI Pro Vol? In a single MIR project, I use VI Pro Patches on some tracks (e.g., the first case above) and I use VI Pro Presets on other tracks (e.g., the second case above).

    Should I set all instances of VI Pro Vol to the same value in order to use MIR Natural Volume correctly? Or should I leave VI Pro Vol where VI Pro sets it individually for each track?

    How was MIR's Natural Volume function designed to be used? Thanks.
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    Does anyone know? Is everyone using Natural Volume getting effectively random volume?
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    If person A turns on Natural Volume and loads Presets:

    /A - Strings   PRESET - Files/01 Violin solo/VI VSL Preset Level 1 and

    /B - Woodwind   PRESET - Files/32 Flute I/FL1 VSL Preset Level 1,

    VI Pro will set Vol to 127 for the violin and 118 for the flute.

    If person B turns on Natural Volume and loads Patches:

    /A -  String patches/01 Violin solo/10 PERF INTERVAL/01 VI_perf-legato and

    /B -  Woodwind patches/32 Flute I/10 PERF INTERVAL/01 FL1_perf-legato,

    VI Pro will set Vol to 127 for the violin and 127 for the flute.

    Did VSL design Natural Volume to work correctly for person A or for person B? No hint from VSL. VSL should rename "Natural Volume" to "Unnatural, Random Volume".
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    VSL should rename "Natural Volume" to "Aleatoric Volume". Great for Second-Viennese-School composers of random noise.
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     When I instantiate the MIDI track I start with 100; or no setting = 100 in Cubase. Chances are good that I'm going to do something here with it. What the instrument opens up as has no relevance to me, I never noticed that.

    I don't think 'what is the correct usage of Natural Volume' is anything either really. It's a suggested starting point and doesn't have to suit anything particularly.
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    @civilization 3 said:

     When I instantiate the MIDI track I start with 100; or no setting = 100 in Cubase. Chances are good that I'm going to do something here with it. What the instrument opens up as has no relevance to me, I never noticed that.

    I don't think 'what is the correct usage of Natural Volume' is anything either really. It's a suggested starting point and doesn't have to suit anything particularly.

    Thanks for your insight. I have to disagree respectfully about Natural Volume, though. It's a real, objective measurement, not a matter of art or taste. If you have a real flute and a real trumpet right next to each other in the real world, and one real microphone, and the microphone records the timbre of the flute playing softly, and it records the timbre of a the trumpet blaring, the trumpet will naturally be recorded louder. That's the laws of physics, it's real and objective.

    If you go to a real concert and wait to hear the soft timbre of a flute sounding louder than the blaring timbre of a trumpet, you'll never get it. It doesn't happen in the natural world. The natural world is real, and the natural sound of orchestra has an important place in my music.

    If you want a blaring trumpet timbre to sound quiter than a soft flute timbre in your music, that's your prerogative and your listeners may like your music all the more for it; but it's not natural. It's a departure from the natural arrangement of timbres and volumes.

    VSL could have said, "Just set volumes where you like them; what sounds good is good," and that's true; but VSL went further and said, "If you buy MIR from us, we deliver a feature -- 'Natural Volume' -- which allows you to achieve the physically natural balance between timbre and volume," and that promise was a significant factor in my decision to give VSL money for the product. They're not delivering on that promise now, as their "Natural Volume" function is giving me inconsistent balance between flute and violin, depending on whether I load Presets or Patches.

    If I wanted to use my inexpert ears to try to figure out how to set volumes to get a natural timbral balance, I wouldn't have paid for a product which promised to do that work for me.

    VSL has the answer. They know exactly how the VI Pro volume should be set in order for the MIR "Naural Volume" to work as designed. It's just a matter of their withholding that information from their customers.
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    @BachRules said:

    If person A turns on Natural Volume and loads Presets:

    /A - Strings   PRESET - Files/01 Violin solo/VI VSL Preset Level 1 and

    /B - Woodwind   PRESET - Files/32 Flute I/FL1 VSL Preset Level 1,

    VI Pro will set Vol to 127 for the violin and 118 for the flute.

    If person B turns on Natural Volume and loads Patches:

    /A -  String patches/01 Violin solo/10 PERF INTERVAL/01 VI_perf-legato and

    /B -  Woodwind patches/32 Flute I/10 PERF INTERVAL/01 FL1_perf-legato,

    VI Pro will set Vol to 127 for the violin and 127 for the flute.

    Did VSL design Natural Volume to work correctly for person A or for person B? No hint from VSL. VSL should rename "Natural Volume" to "Unnatural, Random Volume".

     

    I'm not sure what you are referring to here,  because when VI Pro loads a PATCH (or MATRIX),  it doesn't set any volumes within VI Pro.  MIR Pro will change if it sees a new instrument,  but MIR Pro sets Violin Solo to -21 and Flute solo to -18.5, that doesn't change if it's a Preset or Patch.

     

    Natural Volume is a function of MIR Pro,  and has nothing to do with settings in VI Pro, other than the instrument it detects.

    The Flute PRESET, does set the VI Pro volume to 118,  but loading a Flute Patch does not change or set any volume.

     

    It looks like maybe you are just confusing yourself here.
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    @Another User said:

    Natural Volume is a function of MIR Pro,  and has nothing to do with settings in VI Pro, other than the instrument it detects.

    The Flute PRESET, does set the VI Pro volume to 118,  but loading a Flute Patch does not change or set any volume.

    It looks like maybe you are just confusing yourself here.

    If you want to use Natural Volume with these Presets:

    /A - Strings   PRESET - Files/01 Violin solo/VI VSL Preset Level 1 and

    /B - Woodwind   PRESET - Files/32 Flute I/FL1 VSL Preset Level 1,

    how would you set Volume in VI Pro for the flute Preset? Would you have it at 118, where it defaults when you load the flute Preset? Or would you have it 127, to match default VI Pro Volume for the violin Preset? If you want the natural arrangement between the violin and flute timbres, you have to choose correctly between 118 and 127. If you choose wrong, you will not get a natural arrangement between the violin and flute timbres. What do you choose?

    Please unconfuse me, if you know which choice is correct for attaining natural arrangement between the violin and flute timbres?
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    The way I have always figured out that levels work, is that MIR needs an even level input to it, so that the Natutral Volume can then do it's thing.  The volume in VI Pro seems to be set, so that a maximum level of about -10 is always sent to MIR.

    When I set up my own Presets,  I set the VI Pro volume so that the maximum output level is about -10 (with the mixer level at 0), then let MIR take over control of the level.  This is only a starting point, and further adjustments will need to be made, but I think this explains why various Presets have different volume levels.

    Perhaps someone from VSL can confirm or deny this, as this is only what I have discovered, and the way that I start out with things.
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    "Natural Volume' is [...] a suggested starting point"

    @BachRules said:

    Natural Volume [...] a real, objective measurement, not a matter of art or taste.

    VSL has the answer. They know exactly how the VI Pro volume should be set in order for the MIR "Naural Volume" to work as designed. It's just a matter of their withholding that information from their customers.


    I'm basically parroting there what I've seen someone from VSL, perhaps Dietz, state about the matter on this forum.


    I don't know where 'a real, objective measurement' comes from. I guess if someone only ever uses VSL Samples and MIR Pro it comes off as a more or less naturalistic out-of-the-box experience, but I've seen this asked several times here and that's my received answer. First time I noticed it, it was 'I'm not hearing enough of this instrument' and I adjusted for it. And that isn't I think very unique to me.
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    Dietz wrote [in the thread MIRx Clarinet natural volume]: "In any case - if the Natural Volume setting for the Clarinet is not to your liking, just reduce its volume by two or three dB. If the instruments seems to be too dry and up-front, bring up the wet signal a bit. After all, Natural Volume is meant to be used as a convenient starting point for your own creations. It can't and won't replace an individual mix for every new arrangement."
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    @Another User said:

    "Natural Volume' is [...] a suggested starting point"

    I'm basically parroting there what I've seen someone from VSL, perhaps Dietz, state about the matter on this forum.

    Dietz is in the habit of telling people there are no rules, and whatever sounds good is good. When it comes to Natural Volume, however, there are rules, and those rules are called The Laws of Physics. You cannot see people fly in the real, natural world, because The Laws of Physics. You can see them fly in the movies, and that's like when you use your DAW to deviate from Natural Volume. Sometimes you want people flying in your movies, but sometimes I don't. I just want it to sound authentic, and that's hardly a revolutionary idea. With Mural, you just load the patches and play, and you get Natural Volume, because the players were recorded in place, and the samples were never normalized. VSL was recorded differently, but there's nothing to stop us from getting Natural Volume out of VSL, if only VSL were willing to give us the information we needed to do that. Mural doesn't make you jump through hoops to achieve Natural Volume.
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    From another thread:

    "The two (or actually three) things to keep in mind are:

    1. Natural Volume makes only sense when it gets used for all instruments of an arrangement.

    2. Due to the huge dynamic range covered by the different instruments of an orchestra, most instruments bar a very few have to be set to surprisingly low volumes, to allow for the necessary headroom of the few loud ones. If your arrengement seems to be too quiet then, either raise the volume*) of all instruments by the same amount, or simply bring up your master bus' volume to meaningful levels.

    3. Natural Volume is meant to be used as a starting point. Don't expect this feature to be the answer to all your mixing tasks.

    *) "Raising the volume" is not the same as "using a louder dynamic layer"!

    BTW - this is what MIRx' Manual tells us about Natural Volume on p.11:

    Quote:

    NATURAL VOLUME

    > If you are writing for a full orchestra with full dynamics (ppp to fff), Natural Volume will provide you with a great starting point for your mix.

    > Natural Volume will also help to adjust the relations between instruments quickly.

    > E.g., if your loudest instrument is at a Natural Volume level of -10dB (Vienna Horn):

    1) you can set this instrument at 0dB in your mixer

    2) and add 10 dB to the natural volume value of all other instruments.

    > If you are writing a very quiet piece, you can raise the levels accordingly!"

    I never noticed MIR Pro forcing VI Pro to have a CC7 level, that would not help me. So I can't speak to that as an issue. With acoustic type of samples-based instruments I use MIDI Volume less, generally, than I would with an electro-acoustic or electronic samples-based instrument or synthesizer instrument but I do think of it somewhat in terms of the amount of energy going to the sound-producing engine still. Why is there in addition "expression" as a CC do you think?
    It's a matter of more control than being dogmatic about the meaning of '118' conflated with 'Natural Volume', IME. I do quite understand the point of Natural Volume as a feature but vis a vis a whole and everything else equal meaning all VSL which I haven't done. And there's some writing about exceptions by Dietz already.
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    @civilization 3 said:

    Dietz wrote [in the thread MIRx Clarinet natural volume]: "In any case - if the Natural Volume setting for the Clarinet is not to your liking, just reduce its volume by two or three dB. If the instruments seems to be too dry and up-front, bring up the wet signal a bit. After all, Natural Volume is meant to be used as a convenient starting point for your own creations. It can't and won't replace an individual mix for every new arrangement."

    Thanks for quoting that. I take his advice there to mean, "If you want to make it less natural, go right ahead and change the levels away from Natural Volume." But, that doesn't apply to me, as I don't want to make it unnatural. I want Natural Volume, which is a major factor why I bought MIR.
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    @Another User said:

    "Natural Volume' is [...] a suggested starting point"

    I'm basically parroting there what I've seen someone from VSL, perhaps Dietz, state about the matter on this forum.

    Dietz is in the habit of telling people there are no rules, and whatever sounds good is good. When it comes to Natural Volume, however, there are rules, and those rules are called The Laws of Physics. You cannot see people fly in the real, natural world, because The Laws of Physics.


    Yeah well, knock yourself out with this stuff. I guess you believe some things about mixing orchestral music that follows your dogma here, and you can work with that if you like. Amplification does not impact timbre of the instrument, though, for starters. It's called mixing. Where in your experience did you get the idea that someone mixing an orchestral never touched a fader? That seems to be your 'understanding'.

     

    You're on your own, you know better than I do apparently. I'm not going to take time to sort you out if you're going to insult my intelligence.
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    @civilization 3 said:

    From another thread:...

    But unfortately that sheds no light on the issue of this thread: How to set VI Pro Volume (CC7) so that it doesn't work against MIR's Natural Volume adjustments.

    Any wrong CC7 setting will defeat the purpose of MIR's Natural Volume adjustments. In order to avoid wrong CC7 settings, we'd need to know which CC7 settings are right. For that, we'd need VSL's cooperation, and that's what's missing here.
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    @Another User said:

    I'm not going to take time to sort you out if you're going to insult my intelligence.

    Bye.
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    @civilization 3 said:

    The volume of amplification does not impact timbre, though, for starters.

    As if I claimed it did?


    You're lecturing me about timbre and volume and saying "there are no DAW faders in the real world"*. I think my inference is completely in reference to your statement.

     

    * In fact there are in every recording studio. LOL! Where in your experience does this dogma derive from?
    [Rhetorical Question]
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    @Another User said:

    In fact there are in every recording studio. LOL! Where in your experience does this dogma derive from?

    Does your experience in recording studios entitle you to tell me which chords and notes to compose too, or only how I should adjust my volumes in my own compositions?

    The "dogma" you're railing against is all in your head. I'm just asking how to operate this computer program in order to get it to function as advertised. Your music isn't important enough to me for me to care how you set your own levels; please understand that. You took my request for customer support, and you made it about your own music, in your mind. It's not really about you and your music. I've never given a moment's thought to your music; understand now?

    I'm not interested in you, as your point seems only to take offense from my request for customer-support on a company's customer-support website.
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    Come on guys, no need to bicker. The question as I understood it is simply: how do the volume faders in VI Pro have to be set to use the natural volume feature of MIR correctly. Indeed a clarification from VSL would be welcome, and I'm sure they will give an answer once they get aware of the question. Their support is really great and they are as helpful as you could wish. So, I'd simply write an email to their support aksing the question.

    Meanwhile, the logical solution would be to set the volume sliders in VI Pro to the same value for each instrument. Maybe try this and listen if it gives you meaningful volume correlations? If something is way off that way you should be able to easily hear it. Otherwise you have a working solution until VSL answers your question.

    By the way, the Dynamic Range slider in VI Pro will have an influence too. I guess this one too should be set to the same value for all instruments when working with 'Natural Volume'.