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VSL DAW & "The Future" of Sampling
Last post Sun, Apr 12 2015 by SJSF, 12 replies.
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Posted on Thu, Apr 09 2015 03:41
by SJSF
Joined on Sat, Sep 18 2010, Posts 499

Dear VSL,

 

The VSL DAW

Call that ambitious and insane. But it would be a dream come true. Cubase is awesome. But with each new version I find that they are neglecting things I want addressed. My dream DAW:

  • A decent notation editor (not for copyist work, just comparable to the way AVID shamefully hacked Sibelius into ProTools before firing the developers). Simple, notes, notation. The universal language of reading music.
  • Improved editing on the Piano roll. Cubase is great. I want better.
  • Improved editing of cc fine tuning. Ditto.
  • Cubase expression maps were a start. Then developement died.
  • Better volume management, like Capsule's mic gain control
  • Composing, orchestrating = Things like Sibelius's 'idea saver' (massively helpful, despite being very underdeveloped)
  • Collaborating = Two people working on the same file at the same time, on different parts of the file (like what many collaborative cloud platforms offer) Over Network, 2 VEP farms, whatever...

While many of these seem to be complaints I should take to Steinberg, my point is that they are focused on pleasing a lot of people. so the orchestral composer doesn't see the right tools and is always jerry-rigging things to work the way they should have to start with. VEP seems like the right place to look. It's already a start to what could be a fully fledged DAW with these features. Again, it's ambitious and crazy. All I'm saying is I'd buy it. This DAW could even have a built in app store, to buy Vienna Suite plugins, MIR, Room Packs. Can't you see my vision here!? It's brilliant!!! :)

 

VSL Sampler

 

Oh man, I cannot say enough times how much I want all my samples in VIP. Balderdash you say!? No. VEP being open to 3rd Parties didn't hurt VSL. If anything it brings more people into the VSL world. If I could use my own custom sampled instruments or build my own in VIP, I'd die a happy man. All of my instruments could operate under the same design and workflow. This would save me SO MUCH time and hassle. I'd have the same powerful tools for sound. Again, something I'd GLADLY pay $$$ for.

 

Yes, I'm fully aware that I'm insane, crazy, looney, and that this may be rejected in an instant. I'm just saying, I want it. I'd pay for it. I want it. Did I mention something about wanting?

 

Thanks,

Sean

Posted on Thu, Apr 09 2015 03:56
by SJSF
Joined on Sat, Sep 18 2010, Posts 499

Now watch as greatness begins to take shape before your very eyes...

VSL DAW - Image 01

Notice the top of the program. ;)

Edit: OH MAN! Can you imagine seemless downloading of instruments right into your DAW while you're working? Well, I need a recorder and a Cimbasso for this. Gee... there's a link here where I can download it right into my DAW and start using it. BA HA HA!!! I love this.

Okay, I'll try not to push so much now. But seriously, you can't tell me those wouldn't be awesome.

-Sean

Posted on Thu, Apr 09 2015 09:38
by Dominique
Joined on Fri, Aug 08 2008, Posts 179

You mean something like apple's appstore? Sample developers could pay VSL to use VI Pro as player for their libraries, and then sell them through VSL DAW's own appstore? Why not, nice idea. A good thing about VSL is that whatever software they come up with usually makes a lot of sense. Could be that they are working on a DAW already. But then again I don't know whether the market is big enough to make the development of such a specialised tool profitable.

One point I strongly agree with is the integration between notation software and the DAW. There's a lot of potential there. It's till a tedious and time consuming task to go from mockup to notation. Even with fairly basal, uncomplicated music there's a lot of tidying up that has to be done manually. I think this could be minimized with clever programming.

Posted on Thu, Apr 09 2015 13:44
by Migot
Joined on Sun, Apr 01 2007, Quebec, Canada, Posts 286

Sean,

Agree,

I love your comment...

A dream,

...have look on that tread...

http://vsl.co.at/community/posts/t33606-A-dream#post211296

Alain

Alain LeBlond
Composer born in 1957

Mac Pro (early 2009) 5.1
2 x 2.26 GHz Quad-Core, 32 Go
Mac OS 10.14.6

Dorico 4, Notion6,
-VSL, SE Complete Bundle, SE Synchronized, Ve Pro, Vi Pro, MIRx
Roland A-88 keyboard
Posted on Fri, Apr 10 2015 00:58
by SJSF
Joined on Sat, Sep 18 2010, Posts 499

Alain,

 

Thanks! I've been following the Making Notes blog. Although I've been worried they aren't committed to the film composer enough and mostly are to copyists and hobbyist composers. It's one thing to do it as a hobby. It's another thing when you need a mockup to sound brilliant. It just doesn't work to tell a Director "Hey, trust me... while it sounds crappy now it will sound brilliant later on". Editing of midi automation is fundamental to the modern media composer. Doing it timely is crucial for working quickly and focusing on writing. If Steinberg doesn't take that seriously, I Want a program that does.

 

We are, after all, here to write music. Things which make process difficult need to be optimised or disguarded in favor of things which making the music our focal point. This year my main focus is 1) the music 2) the workflow to produce better mock-ups faster and 3) to record as much as possible and as high quality as possible. I feel like I want to push past the sky limit but don't have the tools to do it. I can't even find people who'd know how to develope the tools to do it. It's frustrating. But hopefully that can change. :)

 

-Sean

Posted on Fri, Apr 10 2015 07:15
by fiestared
Joined on Wed, Sep 01 2010, France, Posts 46

Hi Sean,

Thank you for your post ! I am 100% with you.

VSL could make a DAW made by "composers for composers" that could change the way we all work ; and with the quality of VSL... WOW, I'm crossing fingers.

F.red 

Posted on Fri, Apr 10 2015 07:57
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608

Originally Posted by: SJSF Go to Quoted Post

I've been following the Making Notes blog. Although I've been worried they aren't committed to the film composer enough and mostly are to copyists and hobbyist composers.

No, fear not,  that isn't the case. When this new program comes out it will blow both Sibelius and Finale out of the water, as far as professionals are concerned.

There is also a real understanding of what DAWs offer, and whilst it is unlikely that this new program will ever become as fully featured as a DAW, there is a connection with the development of Cubase, so in time the movement from notation program to DAW and vice versa should become easier and easier.

DG

Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Fri, Apr 10 2015 15:30
by LAJ
Joined on Sun, Dec 13 2009, Posts 538
First of all: No, they will not do it! Paul confirmed this just last year.

Second: I understand this very well. Steinberg is preparing the next Generation Notation Software already with People from the old Sibelius Team. And as already mentioned by DG ... it will destroy all competitor products. That is clear.

Link: http://blog.steinberg.net

And it really seems that they know what to do in this Blog.

Third: Your Picture looks just like one of many DAWs-Pictures. I mean ... Bitwig ... for example ... yes it is new, but is it better than DAW X? Clearly NO!

Fouth: If you have good ideas and enough skill, you can do great music with every DAW outthere.

Sampler: Halion 5 and Competitors are already offering all you will ever need. Much more than VI. And a new Version of all samplers with more features should come this year ... if you take a look at releases. But as mentioned ... take a look at the existing features ... what fo you miss??? They are Feature-Monsters!

I thinkVSL should focus on what makes them special: And this is MIR and the Roompacks with Samples of Real Intruments inside.

I mean ... why does VSL not create a Synthesizer?? Because U-he is just awsome in what they are offering :) there is no need for more at least.

And Spectrasonics are coming with Omni 2 ... Where you even can load your own Samples. Another Monster with endless possibilities.

So again .... what do you miss? Everything of what you are asking here is existing already.

The only thing that comes to my mind what i am missing, and what no one offers is for example a Boys Choir singing in all dialects. That would be something!

Shiba Inu & Doge ... to the 🌙🚀🚀

Posted on Sat, Apr 11 2015 08:18
by Dominique
Joined on Fri, Aug 08 2008, Posts 179

Originally Posted by: LAJ Go to Quoted Post
Second: I understand this very well. Steinberg is preparing the next Generation Notation Software already with People from the old Sibelius Team. And as already mentioned by DG ... it will destroy all competitor products. That is clear.

How do you know that? Have you worked with the program? Obviously not, because there is no program yet. Boy, this prospective hype is slightly odd. Excitement about an upcoming product is all fine and well, but a blunt statement like 'it's going to destroy everything in the market' is a bit over the top, isn't it? Also, Daniel Spreadbury stated somwhere in his blog that more extensive DAW-integration is something they are planning to expand on in the future. Doesn't sound like it will go beyond what currently can be done with Sibelius/Finale, at least not for now.

 

Anyway, I'm curious to see which direction VSL is taking in the future, now that all the common (and some not so common) instruments of the classical orchestra have been sampled with their meticulous approach. The dimension approach was obiously something new and succesful, but it makes less sense for woodwinds. A synthesizer could be an option, but as LAJ stated there's very good ones around already. And after all VSL has focused more on classical instruments than film/production/ tv music (not that you couldn't do that as well with VSL).

I could see VSL starting a sample modelling approach. That would be exciting. Or maybe they'll come up with a new product line with orchestral instruments recorded in a concert hall (in the Vienna Konzerthaus, maybe? Yummy). Who knows. In any case I do not see them sitting back and not coming up with new products :)

Too bad they won't develop their own daw. But then again, as LAJ stated, the current options are really not that bad.

Posted on Sun, Apr 12 2015 03:34
by SJSF
Joined on Sat, Sep 18 2010, Posts 499
LAJ,


I agree that we can write great music with current tools. I wrote great music with a pen today. But unlike what you have expressed, I believe existing tools can improve and new tools can be developed. I am skilled in UX prototyping and actively practice and study better design methods. I also compose with any tools I have. I would with my voice alone if that's all I had. Point is, I wouldn't be posting here if I shared your opinion. I see room for improvement. I also know that the guy who wrote VIP isn't a recording engineer. So his focus certainly doesn't need to be on sampling a new instrument. VSL is both a sample company and software developer. Ergo, my request is congruous with their businesses model.

Halion is extremely limited. Kontakt is buggy, requires extensive scripting. The best scriptwriter's are not cheap. I simply want my private libraries in the same powerful sampler. You may not share that desire. You are wrong. ;)

Omnisphere 2 is promising but has nothing to do with this. Apples and oranges.

Markets change. What Paul says yesterday means little to me. What I want. What tools can help me. What I'll pay for. That means more to me. No offense to Paul. HZ Pays for custom tools. Why? Cause nothing exists yet that does everything one could ever use. You may be happy with your tools. Others aren't. I'm not. ;)

Name a DAW with VEP's networking abilities, decent notation, expression maps, folders for tracks, multi user editing and collaboration, and video tools like cubase. Name it. It doesn't exist. Cubase can't output streamers. Not every DAW has the film composer in mind. No offense but that's very obvious.

I'm sure you're a nice guy. I'm certainly intending no offense. But I don't think you can contribute anything useful here if you are already satisfied with the software tools you have.

-Sean

Posted on Sun, Apr 12 2015 07:38
by LAJ
Joined on Sun, Dec 13 2009, Posts 538
Hi Sean,

Of cause i am a nice guy :)

Do not get me wrong. I had the same Visions and wishes ... until I switched from Logic to Cubase/Halion/Wavelab last year. Of cause the Steinberg Products could be improved, but from my Point of view Steinberg is the best Company for VSL People RIGHT NOW. But there is room for more. And yes i think it is better to share your thoughts with Steinberg. Share your thoughts with the making Notes Team. They are very open for this.

You can read this Vision even in my Thread Future Wishes and Bug Report (started 2013): http://vsl.co.at/communi...nd-Bug-Report#post220623

There I started to Collect my ideas and found Bugs. Until today VSL has no official Bug Report-Collection-Thread in the Header like many other Forums have it.

When Paul gives me a no ... I am looking for an alternative Solution. We all have to see that development of Synths, Samplers and especially DAWs Takes Companies several years. This work would stop them from doing "the right things" like offering new Instruments or make the existing Voices singing with words. And for most People here this would be the biggest milestone the could set. Much bigger that more dimension Instruments or Softwaredevelopment.

An important Advice: Be detailled!

I aree ... Kontakt is not the best choice! But you just wrote: Halion 5 is limited. Why?! Write what you miss and expect. Be detailled with your ideas. That is the only thing that helps VSL thinking about developing and improving/creating functions. Or you put your thoughts to a wishlist like I did.

What features should this Vienna Intruments Sampler have? Do you want it to have granular-features, a Waveform-Editor? ... and so on ...



BR Lars

Shiba Inu & Doge ... to the 🌙🚀🚀

Posted on Sun, Apr 12 2015 14:30
by SJSF
Joined on Sat, Sep 18 2010, Posts 499
Lars,

I agree about Cubase. There is no better DAW for this work IMO. But I want more dedicated development of parts of the program that rarely see updates... The midi world has been low priority while they make the mixer more shiny in each release.

Halion, from what I've seen... doesn't have the same design as VIP, even the same philosophy. RR disabling, multi articulation with multi mic positions (for some of my samples), custom scripts, dynamic range sliders, humaniser, EQ per matrix, easily editable articulation mapping, etc. Am I wrong. I have looked at Halion seriously before. But it seemed less friendly to these things than VIP.

I have requested features to Daniel Spreadbury, such as a cc lane or at least a better editor than Sibelius has (which is ridiculous to the point of being unusable). He isn't interested in this until later versions. I respect that, but I want to find more immediate solutions. The film I'm finishing now has been larger than my past films and taught me valuable need for tools that do what I want. I will investigate Halion again.

I am very detailed in bug reports and feature requests these days. I was less on this post as I am open to suggestions and ideas about how the features I highlighted could improve. I will be away from a computer for a week but perhaps I will be more detailed when I return.

Thanks for the reply. Good input. :)

-Sean
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