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Beethoven's 5th symphony with VSL
Last post Mon, May 04 2015 by exister, 22 replies.
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Posted on Tue, Apr 14 2015 11:08
by exister
Joined on Thu, Feb 19 2015, Sweden, Posts 29

Just finished a full performance for the Beethoven's 5th symphony using VSL.

https://soundcloud.com/erik-nordin-5/beethovens-5th-performed-by-erik-nordin

Happy for comments...

Enjoy!

Erik Nordin

Struggling to become a composer (not a jedi yet..)

Master: Imac 27 5k 16m ram, Roland A-88 keyboard, RME Fireface UC, Mac OS OS X 10.10, Cubase 8,5 PRO

Slave: PC Intel i7 7700K 4,2Ghz, 64MB DDR4, ASUS PRIME Z270-K LGA1151 Moterboard, 2GB SSD
Instruments PRO, Ensemble PRO, MIR PRO, VSL SE +, App Solo Violin +, App Strings +, Ivory Pianos
Posted on Tue, Apr 14 2015 18:05
by Jos Wylin
Joined on Mon, Dec 03 2012, Flanders, Belgium, Posts 580

Erik,

 

 

THis is amazing! You realised a very nice interpretation and orchestral sound and depth. The colour of the instruments is just right. The only thing (only to my taste) is the somewhat exaggerated dynamic contrasts. This is definitely no criticism, purely a matter of taste. Beethoven requires firm contrasts, but a little less would be more acceptible.

For the rest, a big round of applause for your detailed work and interpretation!

Max

http://www.joswyl.be
compositions and sampling exercises
Posted on Wed, Apr 15 2015 07:51
by exister
Joined on Thu, Feb 19 2015, Sweden, Posts 29

Thanks max for those kind words.

I will for sure have a look at the exaggerated dynamic contrasts!  :)

/Erik

Erik Nordin

Struggling to become a composer (not a jedi yet..)

Master: Imac 27 5k 16m ram, Roland A-88 keyboard, RME Fireface UC, Mac OS OS X 10.10, Cubase 8,5 PRO

Slave: PC Intel i7 7700K 4,2Ghz, 64MB DDR4, ASUS PRIME Z270-K LGA1151 Moterboard, 2GB SSD
Instruments PRO, Ensemble PRO, MIR PRO, VSL SE +, App Solo Violin +, App Strings +, Ivory Pianos
Posted on Wed, Apr 15 2015 11:16
by Migot
Joined on Sun, Apr 01 2007, Quebec City, Quebec, Canada, Posts 282

you keep us on toes !

Great...

Alain LeBlond
Composer born in 1957

Mac Pro (early 2009) 5.1
2 x 2.26 GHz Quad-Core, 32 Go
Mac OS 10.9.5

Dorico, Notion5, DP 8, Finale 2012,
-VSL, SE Complete Bundle, SE Synchronized, Ve Pro, Vi Pro, MIRx
Roland A-88 keyboard
Posted on Sun, Apr 19 2015 20:32
by Beat Kaufmann
Joined on Fri, Jan 03 2003, Switzerland/Brugg, Posts 1723

Hello exister

Even if I say "let the dynamic as it is" this statement is not against the meaning of Max it is simple a matter of taste. I would go a step further. Try to bring your orchestra a little bit closer to the listener. This will enhance your dynamicseven more  and all your beautiful fine tunes will be recognized even better.

Because I'm doing recordings of orchestras as a professional I am also used to listen to a lot of other recordings for checking and comparing my results. I recommend this for you as well even if you are using samples. A good pool for this job is "HDTracks". Those short examples are just enough for getting the difference.

One of the examples of the 5. Symph. of Beethoven... 

And another...

Try to come close to the sound of such recordings. A lot of examples of VSL-users sound "handrecorder-like from the balcony" or if you want "typical MIR-like". It is probably because MIR is by default 50%wet/50%dry which is a bit too much...

Happy Music

Beat

www.musik-produktion-createc.ch (Konzertaufnahmen, Musik mit Samples)
at www.beat-kaufmann.com : MIXING an ORCHESTRA - TUTORIAL
Posted on Mon, Apr 20 2015 20:11
by fahl5
Joined on Fri, Feb 04 2005, Hall One, Posts 953

Sounds not bad.

It is true: 50% wet is often a bit to much. (It still depends on the chosen venue and the kind of music)

I can not see any unreasonable exaggerations. Come on Guys! It is Beethoven, as far as I know especially this Composer is not primarly wellknown because he avoid "exaggerations"  that much.

The only thing which seems to me left to complain is:

as far as I know a "full performance" would be a bit longer than half an hour and not just 5 Min. It is a pitty that Sample-Orchestra-programmers usually seem to have the bad habbit not to give "full performances" but only single movements like the 1. Allegro con brio here.

in short we are waiting for: 2. Andante con moto 3. Allegro 4.Allegro

http://klassik-resampled.de ... 3648 mp3 with a whole Week (=7 Days /=171 hours) of sample based interpretations of complete Scores from 7 Centuries

http://synchron.12sf.de
a) ...Synchron-Strings explored in 40 mp3 with more than four hours of complete and ambitious scores from 19th, 20th and 21th century produced with Synchron-Strings.

b) ...Synchron-Steinway explored in 48 mp3 with nearly three hours of complete and ambitious scores from 18th 19th 20th and 21th century produced with Synchron-Steinway.
Posted on Tue, Apr 21 2015 09:35
by exister
Joined on Thu, Feb 19 2015, Sweden, Posts 29

Hello Beat,

I see what you mean with bringing the sound closer to the listener and it would be nice to achive the
same raw cloeseness as in the famous recording by Carlos Kleiber. I have thought
about how to achive this in the best way (any suggestions?).

I'll check out those HDTracks.

About the typical 50%wet/50%dry MIR-like sound , what value do you suggest that I should try and change?

/Erik

Erik Nordin

Struggling to become a composer (not a jedi yet..)

Master: Imac 27 5k 16m ram, Roland A-88 keyboard, RME Fireface UC, Mac OS OS X 10.10, Cubase 8,5 PRO

Slave: PC Intel i7 7700K 4,2Ghz, 64MB DDR4, ASUS PRIME Z270-K LGA1151 Moterboard, 2GB SSD
Instruments PRO, Ensemble PRO, MIR PRO, VSL SE +, App Solo Violin +, App Strings +, Ivory Pianos
Posted on Tue, Apr 21 2015 09:42
by exister
Joined on Thu, Feb 19 2015, Sweden, Posts 29

Thanks fahl5,

I stay corrected about the "full performance" and I'll post the other movements aswell if I find the strength to bring them on. :-)

/Erik

Erik Nordin

Struggling to become a composer (not a jedi yet..)

Master: Imac 27 5k 16m ram, Roland A-88 keyboard, RME Fireface UC, Mac OS OS X 10.10, Cubase 8,5 PRO

Slave: PC Intel i7 7700K 4,2Ghz, 64MB DDR4, ASUS PRIME Z270-K LGA1151 Moterboard, 2GB SSD
Instruments PRO, Ensemble PRO, MIR PRO, VSL SE +, App Solo Violin +, App Strings +, Ivory Pianos
Posted on Tue, Apr 21 2015 13:04
by Beat Kaufmann
Joined on Fri, Jan 03 2003, Switzerland/Brugg, Posts 1723

Originally Posted by: exister Go to Quoted Post

Hello Beat,

About the typical 50%wet/50%dry MIR-like sound , what value do you suggest that I should try and change?

Hello Erik

Observe the distances with the HD-Tracks. The Strings seem to be very close whyle the Horns sound far away. This big distances between the front and the back doesn't MIR offer without any special treatment.

So try the following

  • Open an Instance for the Strings wet 25-30%
  • Open an instance for the Woodwinds wet = 30 - 35%
  • Open aninstance for Brass and Percussion wet = 40-50%

Voilà. Use minitors for the fine tuning and try to achieve a similar result with one of the refernces - just for train and learn to listen and for translating the sound and depth into MIR. Once you will have found your favorit values. The different depths will enhance the transparency and the natural roomfeeling of MIR even more. I am sure. If possible share a short example with us.

You can observe each "transparent" recording - most of them got very big differences in the depths as well:

Examples: depth1 (recording), depth2 (recording), depth3 (samples)

Observe the very different depths in all the examples and the effect on the transparency of the mix.

Let us do it as well with our samples.

All the best Beat

www.musik-produktion-createc.ch (Konzertaufnahmen, Musik mit Samples)
at www.beat-kaufmann.com : MIXING an ORCHESTRA - TUTORIAL
Posted on Tue, Apr 21 2015 13:37
by exister
Joined on Thu, Feb 19 2015, Sweden, Posts 29

Hi Beat,

Thanks for clearifying.

Just one question; when you talk about opening multiple instances, do you mean it as setting up three selected instrument channels in the VSL mixer, with different wet/dry values?

/Erik

Erik Nordin

Struggling to become a composer (not a jedi yet..)

Master: Imac 27 5k 16m ram, Roland A-88 keyboard, RME Fireface UC, Mac OS OS X 10.10, Cubase 8,5 PRO

Slave: PC Intel i7 7700K 4,2Ghz, 64MB DDR4, ASUS PRIME Z270-K LGA1151 Moterboard, 2GB SSD
Instruments PRO, Ensemble PRO, MIR PRO, VSL SE +, App Solo Violin +, App Strings +, Ivory Pianos
Posted on Tue, Apr 21 2015 15:18
by Beat Kaufmann
Joined on Fri, Jan 03 2003, Switzerland/Brugg, Posts 1723

Originally Posted by: exister Go to Quoted Post

Hi Beat,

....do you mean it as setting up three selected instrument channels in the VSL mixer, with different wet/dry values?

/Erik

Yes

Within the DAW mixer you could open 3 Groupe- (Bus- in Logic) Channels with an integrated VST-MIR-Instance or 3 Vienna Ensembles or...  you also could adjust the wet signal of each instrument on stage in one MIR-Instance... This should work as well. So there are several possiblities. The aim is to get more distance between the front and the back instruments on stage so to say - more depth as usual.

Beat

www.musik-produktion-createc.ch (Konzertaufnahmen, Musik mit Samples)
at www.beat-kaufmann.com : MIXING an ORCHESTRA - TUTORIAL
Posted on Wed, Apr 22 2015 09:53
by exister
Joined on Thu, Feb 19 2015, Sweden, Posts 29

Ok great!

Since I have all my instruments set in only once instance, I will go for the second method.

However, as I understand, changing the wet/dry balance for the induvidual instruments on the MIR stage also affects that instruments volume (which I then would have to compensate for).

Therefore, I wonder if it would be a good alternative to have all instruments's dry signals routed to the main output bus in the VSL mixer but have the wet signals for each instrument group routed to it's own group channel (which then would send to the main output).

This way, I imagine, I could control the wet-ratio by just changing the input signal to the three group channels and the dry signal would stay the same (no compensation for volume needed).

Haven't tried this yet but does it sound like a good aproach compared to setting the induvidual instruments on stage?

/Erik

Erik Nordin

Struggling to become a composer (not a jedi yet..)

Master: Imac 27 5k 16m ram, Roland A-88 keyboard, RME Fireface UC, Mac OS OS X 10.10, Cubase 8,5 PRO

Slave: PC Intel i7 7700K 4,2Ghz, 64MB DDR4, ASUS PRIME Z270-K LGA1151 Moterboard, 2GB SSD
Instruments PRO, Ensemble PRO, MIR PRO, VSL SE +, App Solo Violin +, App Strings +, Ivory Pianos
Posted on Wed, Apr 22 2015 11:58
by Beat Kaufmann
Joined on Fri, Jan 03 2003, Switzerland/Brugg, Posts 1723

Hi Erik

First of all: Keep in mind that my suggestion here is not a must!

Secondly: I don't want that you loose all the advantages of MIR because it is a fantastic help for mixing a whole orchestra the easy way. So decide what ever you would like to do.

Nevertheless it would be great to hear the difference between the common use of MIR and those of an advanced application. I would go for solutions where you are able to change the wet/dry-ratio with one knob per section how ever you like to achieve this.

 

All the best

Beat

www.musik-produktion-createc.ch (Konzertaufnahmen, Musik mit Samples)
at www.beat-kaufmann.com : MIXING an ORCHESTRA - TUTORIAL
Posted on Wed, Apr 22 2015 13:34
by exister
Joined on Thu, Feb 19 2015, Sweden, Posts 29

Ok, I hear you! :)

Good suggestions still and I'll post an edited version in this thread as soon as I have it.

/Erik

Erik Nordin

Struggling to become a composer (not a jedi yet..)

Master: Imac 27 5k 16m ram, Roland A-88 keyboard, RME Fireface UC, Mac OS OS X 10.10, Cubase 8,5 PRO

Slave: PC Intel i7 7700K 4,2Ghz, 64MB DDR4, ASUS PRIME Z270-K LGA1151 Moterboard, 2GB SSD
Instruments PRO, Ensemble PRO, MIR PRO, VSL SE +, App Solo Violin +, App Strings +, Ivory Pianos
Posted on Sat, Apr 25 2015 13:47
by exister
Joined on Thu, Feb 19 2015, Sweden, Posts 29

Hi,

As promised, here is an updated version of the piece:

https://soundcloud.com/erik-nordin-5/beethoven-symphony-no5-by-erik-nordin

I have made some overall adjustments but also changed the deepth of the induvidual instruments/groups as recommended by Beat K.

/Erik

Erik Nordin

Struggling to become a composer (not a jedi yet..)

Master: Imac 27 5k 16m ram, Roland A-88 keyboard, RME Fireface UC, Mac OS OS X 10.10, Cubase 8,5 PRO

Slave: PC Intel i7 7700K 4,2Ghz, 64MB DDR4, ASUS PRIME Z270-K LGA1151 Moterboard, 2GB SSD
Instruments PRO, Ensemble PRO, MIR PRO, VSL SE +, App Solo Violin +, App Strings +, Ivory Pianos
Posted on Sat, Apr 25 2015 16:51
by SJSF
Joined on Sat, Sep 18 2010, Utah, Posts 498

Hey guys,

 

I started a Beethoven's 5th mock-up in 2011 with VSL.

Beethoven's 5th Mock-Up

 

I ended up getting another project so I never finished this. It's only the very opening. But I was always very happy with the quality of the mock-up. I've only ever owned the Special Edition :( and back then I used to do an insane amount of tweaking of cc data to get things to where they should be. I compared it to recordings back and forth, etc.

 

For the strings I used chamber, orchestral, and appassionata- all in a constant state of flux with some parts coming out more than others for any given note. That much detail is what makes VSL awesome. It's powerful for sure. Although I usually prefer to avoid that much work. I want to focus on the music, not the programming. Fortunately I've found some tricks since then so it doesn't take long now. But there's the story and there's the mock-up. Hope it's useful to hear. Cheers!

 

-Sean

Posted on Sun, Apr 26 2015 12:30
by exister
Joined on Thu, Feb 19 2015, Sweden, Posts 29

Well done Sean! So far, only appassionatas was used but I will try to combine the different string libraries. Seems like both chamber and orchestral strings were recorded at a closer distance.

/E

Erik Nordin

Struggling to become a composer (not a jedi yet..)

Master: Imac 27 5k 16m ram, Roland A-88 keyboard, RME Fireface UC, Mac OS OS X 10.10, Cubase 8,5 PRO

Slave: PC Intel i7 7700K 4,2Ghz, 64MB DDR4, ASUS PRIME Z270-K LGA1151 Moterboard, 2GB SSD
Instruments PRO, Ensemble PRO, MIR PRO, VSL SE +, App Solo Violin +, App Strings +, Ivory Pianos
Posted on Mon, Apr 27 2015 19:40
by Beat Kaufmann
Joined on Fri, Jan 03 2003, Switzerland/Brugg, Posts 1723

Originally Posted by: exister Go to Quoted Post

Hi,

As promised, here is an updated version of the piece:

https://soundcloud.com/erik-nordin-5/beethoven-symphony-no5-by-erik-nordin

I have made some overall adjustments but also changed the deepth of the induvidual instruments/groups as recommended by Beat K.

/Erik

Hi Erik

Sorry that I answer with such a delay. Had to record a concert over the weekend... OK when I compare the current depths with version 1, it seems that the strings are probably a bit closer but then the rest of the sections seem to be even farther away than with the first version...

I produced an example with your music and with a real recording for a better comparison and as a good help for seeing things which still could be improved.

(What I did) I copied your mp3 file. I also downloaded any 5th symphony of youtube, took out the music of the mp4 and turned it to an mp3 file as well - so both files do have the same quality. Then I brought both mp3s to the same average level. After that I played a bit from your file and then a bit from the one of youtube and so on. Important to know as well I didn't use any effect on both examples!

Example-Comparison (mp3) You will recognize mainly 3 things:

  • 1. You did quite a good job with the articulations and the dynamics!!! Bravo once more.
  • 2. Your music sounds still far more wet and distant than the real recorded piece.
  • 3. The sound of MIR...

What could you do? Reduce all the wet ratios -10%... -15% within the MIR(s?) and your orchestra will appear closer and the colourful venue-sound of MIR will be reduced in the mean time.

!!! You really should not do these tweaks for me. If you believe that the sound of your MIR-Mix is correct, take it and please stopp doing anything !!!

Happy Music

Beat

www.musik-produktion-createc.ch (Konzertaufnahmen, Musik mit Samples)
at www.beat-kaufmann.com : MIXING an ORCHESTRA - TUTORIAL
Posted on Tue, Apr 28 2015 09:40
by exister
Joined on Thu, Feb 19 2015, Sweden, Posts 29

Hi Beat,

Many thanks for creating that very describing example! Mixing has never been my strong side but I see what you mean. I would never do something just because somebody says so...  I agree with you that it might take the piece to another level.

The main reason for setting up this mockup is of course to learn more so your and other people's input is higly apreciated! :)

I give it another shot toonight and see what comes out!

/Erik

Erik Nordin

Struggling to become a composer (not a jedi yet..)

Master: Imac 27 5k 16m ram, Roland A-88 keyboard, RME Fireface UC, Mac OS OS X 10.10, Cubase 8,5 PRO

Slave: PC Intel i7 7700K 4,2Ghz, 64MB DDR4, ASUS PRIME Z270-K LGA1151 Moterboard, 2GB SSD
Instruments PRO, Ensemble PRO, MIR PRO, VSL SE +, App Solo Violin +, App Strings +, Ivory Pianos
Posted on Tue, Apr 28 2015 19:59
by exister
Joined on Thu, Feb 19 2015, Sweden, Posts 29

And here are the new version (with adjusted wet/dry ratio):

https://soundcloud.com/erik-nordin-5/beethoven-symphony-no5

/Erik

Erik Nordin

Struggling to become a composer (not a jedi yet..)

Master: Imac 27 5k 16m ram, Roland A-88 keyboard, RME Fireface UC, Mac OS OS X 10.10, Cubase 8,5 PRO

Slave: PC Intel i7 7700K 4,2Ghz, 64MB DDR4, ASUS PRIME Z270-K LGA1151 Moterboard, 2GB SSD
Instruments PRO, Ensemble PRO, MIR PRO, VSL SE +, App Solo Violin +, App Strings +, Ivory Pianos
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