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First real-world MIR mix
Last post Sat, Apr 25 2015 by Talino, 13 replies.
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Posted on Tue, Apr 14 2015 15:56
by Talino
Joined on Sat, Jul 17 2010, Posts 260

Hi,

I've finished the soundtrack for a documentary, working almost exclusively in MIR24 for the first time. It's been a complete joy not to have to handle separate reverbs and EQs for placement. However, like I said this is a first experience. If anyone feels like listening and giving constructive criticism, here's one of my favorite tracks.

Thanks.

MASTER: Cubase Pro 10.0.20, iMac 27 2015 i7 4.0 (17,1) 24gb RAM, OS X 10.14.4, RME Fireface UC. SLAVE: Mac Pro 2009 Quad 2.66 (4,1), 28gb RAM, OS X 10.11.6, Vienna Ensemble Pro 7, samples on OWC Accelsior SSD.
Posted on Tue, Apr 14 2015 17:46
by Migot
Joined on Sun, Apr 01 2007, Quebec City, Quebec, Canada, Posts 282

Great !

Alain LeBlond
Composer born in 1957

Mac Pro (early 2009) 5.1
2 x 2.26 GHz Quad-Core, 32 Go
Mac OS 10.9.5

Dorico, Notion5, DP 8, Finale 2012,
-VSL, SE Complete Bundle, SE Synchronized, Ve Pro, Vi Pro, MIRx
Roland A-88 keyboard
Posted on Wed, Apr 15 2015 13:54
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7343

Originally Posted by: Talino Go to Quoted Post

I've finished the soundtrack for a documentary, working almost exclusively in MIR24 for the first time. It's been a complete joy not to have to handle separate reverbs and EQs for placement. However, like I said this is a first experience. If anyone feels like listening and giving constructive criticism, here's one of my favorite tracks.

 

Beautiful! Musically and programming-wise the track is flawless, and there's not much to say from an audio-engineering POV either. It might be due to the dreaded audio-quality of Soundcloud, but for me there's a little hump around 2.5 kHz which I would try to tame for an even more "breathy" sound. A touch of high-end boost (a soft shelving EQ around 20 kHz, maybe?) would add to that feeling, too.

Other than that, it's very well done. I could imagine that a little less "wetness" would emphasise the very nice positioning of your virtual orchestra, but that's more kind of a personal preference. :-) Or did you have to use lots of sub-groups (opposed to individual Icons for each single instrument)?

In any case: Great work! Congratulations.

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Wed, Apr 15 2015 14:03
by Talino
Joined on Sat, Jul 17 2010, Posts 260

Thank you Dietz (and Alain). Yes I did go slightly overboard with the wetness I guess, as you always do when you discover a new tool. I had to use a lot of subgroups indeed, because I have MIR24, not the full MIR (budget reasons and also an older Mac Pro, which amounts to one single reason I suppose...) So I had one position for flutes, another for oboes & english horn etc. Not ideal but the best I could manage with my current setup.

I also did some live cello & violin recordings for this film and positioned the audio channels using MIR24. It's such an easy process to get the sound you're looking for that it seems a little bit like cheating... And not a single crash after weeks of heavy editing of around 30 cues (compared to around 10 Cubase crashes per day). Great work on your side as well!

Thanks again.

MASTER: Cubase Pro 10.0.20, iMac 27 2015 i7 4.0 (17,1) 24gb RAM, OS X 10.14.4, RME Fireface UC. SLAVE: Mac Pro 2009 Quad 2.66 (4,1), 28gb RAM, OS X 10.11.6, Vienna Ensemble Pro 7, samples on OWC Accelsior SSD.
Posted on Wed, Apr 15 2015 14:27
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7343

 

Thanks for the friendly words! Always appreciated. :-) 

Originally Posted by: Talino Go to Quoted Post

[...] I had to use a lot of subgroups indeed, because I have MIR24, not the full MIR (budget reasons and also an older Mac Pro, which amounts to one single reason I suppose...) So I had one position for flutes, another for oboes & english horn etc. Not ideal but the best I could manage with my current setup. [...]

This explains the roomy feel indeed. In my experience, MIR can be used quite wet with individual Icons, but running the application in a more conventional "reverb mode" (which means: With lots of subgroups of different sources) needs some extra work to achieve the same clearness. Most of the time, a small change of the wet/dry-ratio is all that's needed, but there are occasions when more attention has to be paid to individual EQing, too.

Kind regards,

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Wed, Apr 15 2015 18:58
by Beat Kaufmann
Joined on Fri, Jan 03 2003, Switzerland/Brugg, Posts 1723

Originally Posted by: Talino Go to Quoted Post

...I had to use a lot of subgroups indeed, because I have MIR24, not the full MIR (budget reasons and also an older Mac Pro, which amounts to one single reason I suppose...) So I had one position for flutes, another for oboes & english horn etc. ...

Hi Talino

... In the early days of VSL we also had to treat instrument by instrument because of not enough fast computers or not enough RAM. 

A tipp for a next piece: Try to put together those instruments which have more or less the same distance from a virtual listener. Groups could be: Strings, Woodwinds, Brass, Percussion. Now take the tip from Dietz - not quite the way as he mentioned it but with the same background: For the Strings you choose the dryest "dry/wet ratio". For each new (farther away) group you increase the wet part a bit.

This action will lead to an even more "depth-feeling" than now and the mix will be more interesting...

Happy music

Beat

www.musik-produktion-createc.ch (Konzertaufnahmen, Musik mit Samples)
at www.beat-kaufmann.com : MIXING an ORCHESTRA - TUTORIAL
Posted on Wed, Apr 15 2015 19:10
by Talino
Joined on Sat, Jul 17 2010, Posts 260

Thanks Beat, I'd already positioned the instrument groups to the best of my abilities by sending appropriate instruments to the same MIR channel (see screenshot), e.g. Clarinet Bb, Clarinet Eb & Bass Clarinet to the "Clarinets" group, Celesta, Vibraphone & Glockenspiel to the same "Pitched Percussion" group, all Dimension Brass sections grouped together etc. 

I'll try the reverb gradient tip next time for sure.

Thanks a lot.

Talino attached the following image(s):
MIR.jpg (132kb) downloaded 39 time(s).

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MASTER: Cubase Pro 10.0.20, iMac 27 2015 i7 4.0 (17,1) 24gb RAM, OS X 10.14.4, RME Fireface UC. SLAVE: Mac Pro 2009 Quad 2.66 (4,1), 28gb RAM, OS X 10.11.6, Vienna Ensemble Pro 7, samples on OWC Accelsior SSD.
Posted on Wed, Apr 15 2015 19:41
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7343

Originally Posted by: Beat Kaufmann Go to Quoted Post

For the Strings you choose the dryest "dry/wet ratio". For each new (farther away) group you increase the wet part a bit.

Originally Posted by: Talino Go to Quoted Post

I'll try the reverb gradient tip next time for sure.

Thanks a lot.

The good news is that MIR takes care for that all by itself, of course - as long as you didn't switch off the option for "Distance Dependent Scaling" in the Global Dry Volume Handling-section of MIR's Output Channel. ;-)

... you can always exaggerate the effect by manually changing the Dry/Wet-ration of individual Icons, though.

Kind regards,

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Wed, Apr 15 2015 20:41
by Beat Kaufmann
Joined on Fri, Jan 03 2003, Switzerland/Brugg, Posts 1723

Originally Posted by: Dietz Go to Quoted Post

...The good news is that MIR takes care for that all by itself, of course - as long as you didn't switch off the option for "Distance Dependent Scaling" in the Global Dry Volume Handling-section of MIR's Output Channel. ;-)

... you can always exaggerate the effect by manually changing the Dry/Wet-ration of individual Icons, though.

Hello Dietz

I gave this hint because most of the mixes of MIR-users tend to sound from far away in my opinion ("balcony-sound" so to say). I admit that I like to listen to an orchestra in the second row... You see more, you smell more and of course you hear more - bad of course when the singer spits...

So yes: Exaggerate the effect by manually changing the Dry/Wet-ration for all the groups will lead to mixes with MIR which are even closer to current recordings of classic orchestras.

In my opinion one could amplify this depth-factor a bit within MIR. For example: When I play just in front of the conducter mic then it doesn't sound as close as I would expect. What do you think, Dietz?

Liebe Grüsse nach Wien

Beat

www.musik-produktion-createc.ch (Konzertaufnahmen, Musik mit Samples)
at www.beat-kaufmann.com : MIXING an ORCHESTRA - TUTORIAL
Posted on Wed, Apr 15 2015 20:46
by Talino
Joined on Sat, Jul 17 2010, Posts 260

I *did* feel that placing the microphone anywhere other than the conductor's position resulting in a much too-distant sounding mix, but maybe that's just the Mozartsaal. I'm still learning the software, remember. I haven't had time to delve into the other spaces in my roompack. 

MASTER: Cubase Pro 10.0.20, iMac 27 2015 i7 4.0 (17,1) 24gb RAM, OS X 10.14.4, RME Fireface UC. SLAVE: Mac Pro 2009 Quad 2.66 (4,1), 28gb RAM, OS X 10.11.6, Vienna Ensemble Pro 7, samples on OWC Accelsior SSD.
Posted on Fri, Apr 17 2015 09:41
by GoranTch
Joined on Tue, Mar 14 2006, Berlin, Posts 524

Originally Posted by: Talino Go to Quoted Post

I *did* feel that placing the microphone anywhere other than the conductor's position resulting in a much too-distant sounding mix, but maybe that's just the Mozartsaal. I'm still learning the software, remember. I haven't had time to delve into the other spaces in my roompack. 

The whole distance issue is relative and should always be taken with a grain of salt (imo). What is a percieved optimal listening perspective will always depend either on your taste/listening habits or the taste/requirements of your client. Beat already mentiond he prefers his orchestras upfront, I myself am more of a middle and back audience seating area perspective guy.

Which is all fine and well as long as you are doing something with your own sound aesthetics preferences in mind - however, as soon as you are doing something for a client with specific requirements, you have to know exactly how to set up a perspective that the client wants to hear. In this regard, you'll find different RoomPacks as well as their different microphone positions to be invaluable.

Posted on Tue, Apr 21 2015 20:29
by jeancello
Joined on Tue, May 13 2008, Qu├ębec Canada, Posts 40

Hi Talino,

You did a great job, and the music is really good.

It is just a question a taste when you have achieve such a result.

I've listened to it at work with headphone so the reverb is perfect for that!

You really can't do much better than thaT.

 

Congrats!

Jean Roy

Jean Roy
Mac Pro 2013 8 * 3.0 64GB
Special edition + ex, Solo string bundle, Chamber String bundle,
App String 1, Harps, Vienna Imperial, Soprano Choir, Dimension brass, Dimension strings + several download instruments
VE Pro, VI Pro, V Suite, MIR
Kontakt 5 Omnisphere
Cubase 9.5
Synchron String soon..
Posted on Sat, Apr 25 2015 06:52
by Talino
Joined on Sat, Jul 17 2010, Posts 260
Thank you Jean Roy for your kind words. Headphones reverb is a huge issue for me because unfortunately I work most of the time with the headphones on, and I can never get the same impression of space when doing A/B with my monitors when preparing for delivery. Everything sounds much drier on my monitors (KRK V6) and I therefore have a tendency to drench the mix. It has become much less of an issue with MIR as the results are more predictable, I don't know why...

Thanks again.
MASTER: Cubase Pro 10.0.20, iMac 27 2015 i7 4.0 (17,1) 24gb RAM, OS X 10.14.4, RME Fireface UC. SLAVE: Mac Pro 2009 Quad 2.66 (4,1), 28gb RAM, OS X 10.11.6, Vienna Ensemble Pro 7, samples on OWC Accelsior SSD.
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