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Posted on Sun, May 31 2015 17:23
by nektarios
Joined on Tue, Nov 19 2013, New Jersey, United States, Posts 468

 

I find the expression maps for Dimension Strings fairly complete and like the way they are structured. On the other hand, the other expression maps for strings are totally useless (sorry for my expression). For example, many articulations missing (i.e. portato), and they are just badly organized. Please trash them and do similar ones like you did for Dimension Strings. I know I can create my own, but would rather use what is provided by VSL as a standard.

Thanks,

-Nektarios

_____

Cubase Pro 8, Windows 7 64 bit @ 64 GB RAM
Dual Intel Xeon E5-2687W @ 3.10GHz
Dimension Strings (Full)
Chamber Strings I+II (Full)
Appassionata Strings I+II (Full)
Orchestral Strings I+II (Full)
Solo Strings I (Full)
Vienna Imperial
Saxophones (Full)
Woodwinds I (Full)
Brass II (Full)
Dimension Brass (Full)
Upright Bass
Percussion (Full)
Overdrive
Jazz Drums
Vienna Choir
Soprano Choir
Solo Voices (Full)
Posted on Mon, Jun 01 2015 08:02
by andi
Joined on Wed, Feb 18 2004, Vienna, Posts 3255

Hello Nektarios!

I register your opinion. Please note that portato repetitions are included in the Expression Maps and the corresponding VI presets for all instruments except the Strings (Solo, Chamber, Orchestral, Appassionata). Here detache is mapped instead. If you prefer the portato repetitions, you could replace articulations you don't need. You could also add matrices to the VI presets and entries to trigger them in the Cubase VST Expression Map Setup.

Best regards,
Andi

Andreas Olszewski
Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Mon, Jun 01 2015 13:50
by nektarios
Joined on Tue, Nov 19 2013, New Jersey, United States, Posts 468

 

I can try doing it, but I find it ridiculous that they decided not to include so many articulations. The strings expression maps are totally useless. I mean... Even spicatto is mapped in the stacatto articulation and triggered by speed??? 

This idea of having one expression map for all strings just won't work when each library has their own set of unique articulations. Why offer a tool to users when it is so incomplete? All they need to do is spend a day and do it and provide users with such a useful tool.

On the other hand, when it comes to Dimension Strings, there is a unified standard they seem to have gotten it.

 

 

 

Originally Posted by: andi Go to Quoted Post

Hello Nektarios!

I register your opinion. Please note that portato repetitions are included in the Expression Maps and the corresponding VI presets for all instruments except the Strings (Solo, Chamber, Orchestral, Appassionata). Here detache is mapped instead. If you prefer the portato repetitions, you could replace articulations you don't need. You could also add matrices to the VI presets and entries to trigger them in the Cubase VST Expression Map Setup.

Best regards,
Andi

_____

Cubase Pro 8, Windows 7 64 bit @ 64 GB RAM
Dual Intel Xeon E5-2687W @ 3.10GHz
Dimension Strings (Full)
Chamber Strings I+II (Full)
Appassionata Strings I+II (Full)
Orchestral Strings I+II (Full)
Solo Strings I (Full)
Vienna Imperial
Saxophones (Full)
Woodwinds I (Full)
Brass II (Full)
Dimension Brass (Full)
Upright Bass
Percussion (Full)
Overdrive
Jazz Drums
Vienna Choir
Soprano Choir
Solo Voices (Full)
Posted on Mon, Jun 01 2015 18:22
by DaddyO
Joined on Tue, May 22 2012, Washington (US State), Posts 347

Originally Posted by: nektarios Go to Quoted Post

I find it ridiculous 

Ridiculous? VSL was under no obligation to supply anything for what is a third party tool. They went to what they felt was a reasonable effort to support a great third party tool. They did not charge for it. They made a reasoned and generous decision as to how much resources to put into it, and they did it.

Me, I'm thankful for what they DID do. Under these circumstances I don't understand heaping them with ridicule for what they DIDN'T do.

My .02.

VSL Std Edition Core WW, Brass, Percussion
VSL Spec Editions Complete
VE Pro 7, VI Pro, MIR Pro
Windows 10 Home
Dorico 3.5, Cubase 9.5
Posted on Mon, Jun 01 2015 19:03
by nektarios
Joined on Tue, Nov 19 2013, New Jersey, United States, Posts 468

 

VSL is a brilliant and awesome product. Love it. Expression Maps are an extremely important part of utilizing this great product to it's full potential. I only use expression maps to set articulations, as I am able to see what is being set in my compositions. It's ridiculous because it's not well made. Better give me nothing. It's like going to the most expensive restaurant in the world, and being told: "Sorry you must bring your own utensils to eat here!" Seriously, how would you feel? 

You set articulations because you know what articulations you want to set. If I want to set a spicatto, I want to set a spicatto, same for stacatto, detache, portato, etc.. 

Dimension Strings Expression Maps are perfectly made. I love the fact that you don't even need to load a preset to use them.

I am trying get the message accross.. 

Btw, I also sent a harsh message to Steinberg (Cubase) about how bad their Expression Maps feature is implemented. I actually gave them the VI PRO sequencer example as a much better and more intuitive way to set articulations -- color coded and easy to follow.

_____

Cubase Pro 8, Windows 7 64 bit @ 64 GB RAM
Dual Intel Xeon E5-2687W @ 3.10GHz
Dimension Strings (Full)
Chamber Strings I+II (Full)
Appassionata Strings I+II (Full)
Orchestral Strings I+II (Full)
Solo Strings I (Full)
Vienna Imperial
Saxophones (Full)
Woodwinds I (Full)
Brass II (Full)
Dimension Brass (Full)
Upright Bass
Percussion (Full)
Overdrive
Jazz Drums
Vienna Choir
Soprano Choir
Solo Voices (Full)
Posted on Mon, Jun 01 2015 20:20
by JimmyHellfire
Joined on Tue, Dec 24 2013, Posts 333

I see the whole thing somewhat differently: IMO, the expression maps can't possibly be more than a suggestion or a general guideline, just so that one can get a general grasp of how the whole thing can be set up and used. Why would I want to use someone else's expression map? I couldn't reasonably expect a map - and the setup of the matrices behind it - to do exactly what I need them to do and fit into my workflow. There's so many ways of utilizing these things. From that point of view, it hardly makes sense to think in categories like "useless" and "incomplete".

Finally, I don't think there's really a way around making one's own VI Pro setups and matrices. And I don't mind it - I like stuff to do exactly what I envisioned.

Posted on Mon, Jun 01 2015 20:42
by nektarios
Joined on Tue, Nov 19 2013, New Jersey, United States, Posts 468

 

I don't see Expression Maps as a suggestion. It's really a convenient way of setting articulations. Each library has a finite amount of articulations. You have Legato, Staccato, Detache, Portato, Marcato, Portamento. etc. etc. Some libraries have variations of these articulations. For example, with Solo Strings, you have performance_detache, detache long, detache short etc. All these different variations can be neatly organized in an Expression map that can cover almost 100% of the articulation set of the specific library.

It defeats the purpose of trying to make one Expression Map for 4 different string libraries. For instance, I see these "bow" articulations in Solo Strings, that don't exist in others.

I just think well written Expression Maps would add so much value to this great product.

_____

Cubase Pro 8, Windows 7 64 bit @ 64 GB RAM
Dual Intel Xeon E5-2687W @ 3.10GHz
Dimension Strings (Full)
Chamber Strings I+II (Full)
Appassionata Strings I+II (Full)
Orchestral Strings I+II (Full)
Solo Strings I (Full)
Vienna Imperial
Saxophones (Full)
Woodwinds I (Full)
Brass II (Full)
Dimension Brass (Full)
Upright Bass
Percussion (Full)
Overdrive
Jazz Drums
Vienna Choir
Soprano Choir
Solo Voices (Full)
Posted on Mon, Jun 01 2015 22:14
by DaddyO
Joined on Tue, May 22 2012, Washington (US State), Posts 347

One thing I wish we saw more of was shared expression maps among the large community of people who use them. They likely would require adaptation between people who may work differently, or will likely have variations in what libraries they use, and what articulations they have available, but at least they would give people a variety of approaches and some templates off which to adapt maps for their own purposes. It would be nice if Steinberg set up a Repository for user-created EM's.

I still don't get the notion that harsh language is warranted, either for Steinberg or for VSL. In the first place, it usually doesn't move people to respond positively to your suggestions; more often, people will react by diggin in their heels. In the second place, it may say more about your own attitude issues and unrealistic expectations than it does about the people you are unloading on. Direct and unvarnished objective criticism is helpful. Ridicule and harsh language? Usually not so much. You might find it helpful to consider how you would respond if someone turned your own words on yourself. There's enough problems to overcome in life without needlessly creating more for yourself.

I want to reiterate, though, that like you I think Expression Mapping needs to be improved. Some relatively simple editing enhancements would go a long way towards making the process much easier, especially for those of us who work with full orchestras, which equals a LOT of articulations.

VSL Std Edition Core WW, Brass, Percussion
VSL Spec Editions Complete
VE Pro 7, VI Pro, MIR Pro
Windows 10 Home
Dorico 3.5, Cubase 9.5
Posted on Tue, Jun 02 2015 01:45
by nektarios
Joined on Tue, Nov 19 2013, New Jersey, United States, Posts 468

Originally Posted by: DaddyO Go to Quoted Post

I still don't get the notion that harsh language is warranted, either for Steinberg or for VSL. In the first place, it usually doesn't move people to respond positively to your suggestions; more often, people will react by diggin in their heels. In the second place, it may say more about your own attitude issues and unrealistic expectations than it does about the people you are unloading on. Direct and unvarnished objective criticism is helpful. Ridicule and harsh language? Usually not so much. You might find it helpful to consider how you would respond if someone turned your own words on yourself. There's enough problems to overcome in life without needlessly creating more for yourself.

Thanks, I will try to tone it down on my next frustrating moment.   My apologies...

Btw, Steve Jobs was known to be harsh with his employees, and managed to create amazing products in the end. Bottom line, if something needed a redesign, it needed a redesign, and he'd send it back to the drawing board...

Well written expression maps for Cubase are critical for utilizing VSL to it's full potential (if you are a Cubase user). There needs to be a way to have 100% coverage of the articulations. I can possibly do it myself, but would rather have a solution from VSL as they are far more experienced in this than someone like me.

_____

Cubase Pro 8, Windows 7 64 bit @ 64 GB RAM
Dual Intel Xeon E5-2687W @ 3.10GHz
Dimension Strings (Full)
Chamber Strings I+II (Full)
Appassionata Strings I+II (Full)
Orchestral Strings I+II (Full)
Solo Strings I (Full)
Vienna Imperial
Saxophones (Full)
Woodwinds I (Full)
Brass II (Full)
Dimension Brass (Full)
Upright Bass
Percussion (Full)
Overdrive
Jazz Drums
Vienna Choir
Soprano Choir
Solo Voices (Full)
Posted on Tue, Jun 02 2015 06:57
by JimmyHellfire
Joined on Tue, Dec 24 2013, Posts 333

Originally Posted by: nektarios Go to Quoted Post

Btw, Steve Jobs was known to be harsh with his employees, and managed to create amazing products in the end. Bottom line, if something needed a redesign, it needed a redesign, and he'd send it back to the drawing board...

My personal little peeve is when someone brings up "Steve Jobs" in any kind of discussion. From there on, I just stop listening. "But dude, Steve Jobs used to boil his eggs soft!.." Well?.. It's also generally brought up as an attempt to drive a non-existant point home, by the head and shoulders.

Meaning: don't you think you're really exaggerating now? A "redesign"? We're talking about expression maps. We're not even talking about VSL products!

Considering the time and energy already invested in this thread: you could have punched in those few spiccati and portati you're missing into the expression maps by now.

Posted on Tue, Jun 02 2015 14:06
by nektarios
Joined on Tue, Nov 19 2013, New Jersey, United States, Posts 468

 

You prove my case: if it is so simple, why didn't they add them? I can certainly add them myself, but that is not the point. What is needed, I think, is each library should have their own individual Expression Map that matches the library presets (without the need to load a separate expression map preset). That's because some libraries just have more articulations than others (i.e. Orchestral/Solo Strings).

It needs a redesign because right now it's more of a setup than a way of specifying articulations (a setup I don't favor). For instance, articulations change based on speed (staccato/spiccato). Anyway, they have already done it perfectly with Dimension Strings, and that should be their gold standard. I could probably devote a whole weekend and do it myself, but right now, I just don't have the time...

I am done with this subject now. I'm glad we've beaten this to death...

_____

Cubase Pro 8, Windows 7 64 bit @ 64 GB RAM
Dual Intel Xeon E5-2687W @ 3.10GHz
Dimension Strings (Full)
Chamber Strings I+II (Full)
Appassionata Strings I+II (Full)
Orchestral Strings I+II (Full)
Solo Strings I (Full)
Vienna Imperial
Saxophones (Full)
Woodwinds I (Full)
Brass II (Full)
Dimension Brass (Full)
Upright Bass
Percussion (Full)
Overdrive
Jazz Drums
Vienna Choir
Soprano Choir
Solo Voices (Full)
Posted on Tue, Jun 02 2015 19:45
by Wizzarts
Joined on Mon, Sep 23 2013, Posts 47

Hmmm... the strength of the VI Pro is that you can configurate it for your very own unique needs.

IMO very soon one will come to the point when one will have to create ones own Xmaps designed for ones specific needs.

It is nice to have some Xmaps for a start but actually it is the cook who has to keep the knives sharp.

Posted on Tue, Jun 02 2015 20:07
by nektarios
Joined on Tue, Nov 19 2013, New Jersey, United States, Posts 468

Each person can have their own unique setup, which is great. For example, the Y Axis being cotnrolled by speed, or having a sequence map etc. etc. But I am not looking for a setup. I am looking for a way to specify any articulation from the given set of articulations. For example, if I want a detache articulation, to specify it, and indicate in a different selection if it's the long or short version. In other words, being able to see all articulations being specified on the midi editor. They do this already with many of them.

At the end, I think I'll devote a weekend and do it myself and share it with everyone.

_____

Cubase Pro 8, Windows 7 64 bit @ 64 GB RAM
Dual Intel Xeon E5-2687W @ 3.10GHz
Dimension Strings (Full)
Chamber Strings I+II (Full)
Appassionata Strings I+II (Full)
Orchestral Strings I+II (Full)
Solo Strings I (Full)
Vienna Imperial
Saxophones (Full)
Woodwinds I (Full)
Brass II (Full)
Dimension Brass (Full)
Upright Bass
Percussion (Full)
Overdrive
Jazz Drums
Vienna Choir
Soprano Choir
Solo Voices (Full)
Posted on Sat, Jun 06 2015 16:02
by johnstaf
Joined on Thu, Apr 21 2011, EI, Posts 216

Dimensions Strings has fewer articulations than many other VSL libraries, so it is possible to work with one neat expression map. If all of the articulations of say Solo Strings were put in a single expression map, it would be a mess in Cubase, which isn't really set up to deal with an instrument having 150 articulations.

Cubase (OS agnostic). Various VSL bits and pieces.

Posted on Sun, Jun 07 2015 03:54
by nektarios
Joined on Tue, Nov 19 2013, New Jersey, United States, Posts 468

Originally Posted by: johnstaf Go to Quoted Post

Dimensions Strings has fewer articulations than many other VSL libraries, so it is possible to work with one neat expression map. If all of the articulations of say Solo Strings were put in a single expression map, it would be a mess in Cubase, which isn't really set up to deal with an instrument having 150 articulations.

Since articulations can have different variations, it can easily be condensed. For example, staccato and rep_stacatto. So if I select a staccato, I can specify which type I want (repetition, or regular). They do this already, but don't cover a vast number of them.

_____

Cubase Pro 8, Windows 7 64 bit @ 64 GB RAM
Dual Intel Xeon E5-2687W @ 3.10GHz
Dimension Strings (Full)
Chamber Strings I+II (Full)
Appassionata Strings I+II (Full)
Orchestral Strings I+II (Full)
Solo Strings I (Full)
Vienna Imperial
Saxophones (Full)
Woodwinds I (Full)
Brass II (Full)
Dimension Brass (Full)
Upright Bass
Percussion (Full)
Overdrive
Jazz Drums
Vienna Choir
Soprano Choir
Solo Voices (Full)
Posted on Sun, Jun 07 2015 15:56
by DaddyO
Joined on Tue, May 22 2012, Washington (US State), Posts 347

Originally Posted by: nektarios Go to Quoted Post

Each person can have their own unique setup, which is great. For example, the Y Axis being cotnrolled by speed, or having a sequence map etc. etc. But I am not looking for a setup. I am looking for a way to specify any articulation from the given set of articulations. For example, if I want a detache articulation, to specify it, and indicate in a different selection if it's the long or short version. In other words, being able to see all articulations being specified on the midi editor. They do this already with many of them.

At the end, I think I'll devote a weekend and do it myself and share it with everyone.

Yeah, I get what you're looking for. That's how I'm starting out with expression maps, just mapping individual articulations so I can select them. I changed my initial approach to where I'm now saving the X-axis cells (after the first column) for variations on the each articulation, whether it be multiple articulations, or cross-fades, or time-stretched versions, etc. That way my map can grow easily as I advance in my ability to us VI Pro.

VSL Std Edition Core WW, Brass, Percussion
VSL Spec Editions Complete
VE Pro 7, VI Pro, MIR Pro
Windows 10 Home
Dorico 3.5, Cubase 9.5
Posted on Thu, Aug 06 2015 11:17
by Wizzarts
Joined on Mon, Sep 23 2013, Posts 47

Hi guys,

I run into another problem. Due to the lack of Cubase to allow scrolling the expression map region very soon there is no space on the screen when it comes to large expression maps with loads of articulations.

So I created a universal expressionmap for low and high instruments. This is for the midi-editor only. The notation feature has no affect on the expressions.

Basically it only names the cells, rows and the matrices but no articulations at all to keep everything as flexible as possible.

It is designed as the following:


Matrix one has 3 rows

Matrix two has 1 row

Matrix three has 3 rows

Matrix four has 1 row

and finally Matrix five has 3 rows.

Acutally one is controlling the cells rather than the articulation. So no matter what is loaded into a cell one can trigger these articulation by calling the cell.

I also have set the cc1 for changing rows to pay attention on the SE. Changing rows with "speed" will work properly anyway as long as cc1 is not set as a controller for something.

I am using an excel sheet to keep up with the loaded cells per instrument but also have opened the VI pro on a fifth screen anyway.

One will get a routine and I am quit happy because I have a clear and almost empty screen.

It can be expanded at any time following the logical stucture.

BUT AGAIN: This is not meant to be used with the Notation feature of Cubase. Yes, you can use it but then you will have to type all the weird text-strings.

File Attachment(s):
VSL Universal ExMaps.zip (44kb) downloaded 20 time(s).
Wizzarts attached the following image(s):
midi-Editor.JPG (162kb) downloaded 38 time(s).

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Posted on Fri, Aug 07 2015 22:11
by TFIS
Joined on Tue, Dec 14 2010, Posts 106

 

 Hi,concerning expression maps, i did a lot trial and error to build a map which fits my needs best.I added two screenshots.I use Special Edition Full (old Version) and Appasionata1 full.

I fact the amount of articulations coming with the Special Edition are quiet limited, it wasn't a big deal to make expression maps containing all articulations available. I made one for string, one for wood and one for the brass instruments. More compllicated was to make the maps for the Appasionata Strings, from which the screenshots are made.

I wanted to load all atriculations available and use only one map to play them all.

The changes I did in VIPro:

-expression is controlled by CC1 (=modwheel) (one thing i'll never understand when looking at the presets provided by VSL is, why should i play "not-percussive" instruments with velocity ???)

-when CC1 is lowered near 0, expression control is being given back to velocity (useful when playing pizz. or staccato, short notes). This is done by changing the VeolcityXF ON/OFF controller to CC1, too. Applying a curve.

Now to the expression map itself, which might look a little bit complicated.

It has 5 large rows.

The first row, with the smaller rows 1 to 9 ist the main selection. The other rows are a kind of "fine selection".

To get the articulation you want, you have to select the same number.

It's not easy to understand, but easy to use (i think), I'm not a good explainer and egnlish isn't my mother language,so here are some

examples:

You want to play a Sustain Note with strong Vibrato:

You select "1 Sustain"(1st row)  and "1+2 Vib+  3 Slur | 4 - " (11th row from the top)

1 is Sustain, Vib+ means strong vibrato.

Legato with strong Vibrato:

You select "2 Legato vel: portam" from top and again "1+2 Vib+  3 Slur | 4 - "

vel: portamento means: if you hit hard, you'll get a portamento

Performance repetition harsh:

You select "4 perf. rep." (4th row) and "1+2 tune | 3+4 harsh" (13th row)

Diminuendo - 4 seconds:

You select "5cresc. vel:dim." (5th row) and "5 4sec.|6 6sec." (18th row) and hit hard.

The first selection selects crescendo/diminuendo, the second the time (4 seconds).

 

You have just to select the main articulation in row 1-9 and then look for the number you

selected in the other row, to do the fine tuning.

 

If you have any questions don't hesitate asking them.

Best regards

File Attachment(s):
vipro.jpg (257kb) downloaded 12 time(s).
TFIS attached the following image(s):
Expression Maps.jpg (164kb) downloaded 53 time(s).

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Posted on Thu, Feb 04 2016 08:11
by Talino
Joined on Sat, Jul 17 2010, Posts 260

Thank you TFIS for sharing. I've running around the issue of VSL Expression Maps in Cubase for years now, and unfortunately there is no best method to be found. Everyone just has to custom create a map which suits his or her way of working. Until Steinberg gets their act together and develops this excellent feature further, possibly trashing the useless and space-consuming "staircase" pattern of the articulation lane in favor of a drop-down menu and one or two simple lines. There is absolutely no point in having all possible articulations visible at all times when most of them never occur simultaneously.

Just my 2c.

MASTER: Cubase Pro 10.0.20, iMac 27 2015 i7 4.0 (17,1) 24gb RAM, OS X 10.14.4, RME Fireface UC. SLAVE: Mac Pro 2009 Quad 2.66 (4,1), 28gb RAM, OS X 10.11.6, Vienna Ensemble Pro 7, samples on OWC Accelsior SSD.
Posted on Thu, Feb 04 2016 11:04
by gerard kruse
Joined on Sat, Apr 25 2009, Leiden, The Netherlands, Posts 101

While trying to make expr. maps for chamber strings and for solo woodwinds and brass', I have of course also been looking for "universal principles" to facilitate making maps without too much effort. I would be interested to find out/hear about any "principles" VSL had in making the expr. maps with the presets that were made available for us.

regards Gerard

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