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  • Warlock - Capriol Suite Complete

    I've posted this piece before, both whole and in parts, but I've re-recorded and remastered it and present it here complete. I'm prepping it for issue on an upcoming album, and would greatly appreciate any input regarding sound, technique, performance, etc.  

    This piece has always been a favorite of mine for string orchestra, and was one of the first pieces I transcribed after discovering Notion, so I've been recording different versions of it now for over two years. I have a history with it

    This version was recorded using Notion playing VSL Dimension Strings; 8 violins I, 8 violins II, 6 violas, 6 cellos and 4 bass. Each staff has two CC lanes recorded in Notion, one for Expression and one for Velocity Crossfade (where there are divisi strings on a staff, then there are four CC lanes). I recorded the Notion audio direct out (for some of the movements in two passes, lower and upper), and then took them all into Logic X for final mastering.

    Enjoy!

    https://soundcloud.com/tensivity/warlock-capriol-suite-complete


  • mjmyers60

    For a string ensemble using 8 first violins, the number of  cellos and double basses is too large.  I suggest 4 cellos  and 2 double basses for a better balance.

    Regards

    Mirabile


  • Mirabile, I'll give it a try and see how it sounds.

    Thanks.

    Michael


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    @mirabile said:

    For a string ensemble using 8 first violins, the number of  cellos and double basses is too large...

    This an interesting question. Some answers...

    1) https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110925145543AAZmRQi

    2) http://tamingthesaxophone.com/composition-strings

    3) I always have seen the ratio "violins-cello" of the "Chamber Strings Library" (smaller ensemble) as a good one: Total 12 Violins (1&2) : 3 Cellos = 4:1

    4) You also can take the Orchestra Library - standing for a bit a larger ensemble with 28 Violins and 8 Cellos = 3.5:1. Whether these ratios are correct with the music or not also depend on the style of music I believe.

    Romantic Music with a too small cello section doesn't work well in my opinion.

    5) In connection with samples we have to take into account that the ratio Violins/Cello is a matter of mixing volumes as well. So we don't have quite the same situation as we have in the real world.

    6) Another approach to lower the dominance of the cello section is to lower the boomy cello frequencies. Some dBs with an EQ (with a low Q (<1) around 150-200 Hz) will solve the matter. You don't lose the nice ensemble sound of more cellos this way but you suppress their dominance.

    Final remark: Of course, the answers 5) and 6) are not along the line of the purists and the technocrats. But they can create the correct ratio of 3.784526349999 : 1 with the dimension strings... 😉. For having the absolute correct value they could cheat a bit as well and increase the volume of the violins for +0,00000107dB... compared to the cellos 😈. Nothing against purists but I would use easy and practicable solutions in this case. As long as we mix the volumes of both instruments with our ears we can't do much wrong with one or two cellos more in their section.

    Best

    Beat


    - Tips & Tricks while using Samples of VSL.. see at: https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/vitutorials/ - Tutorial "Mixing an Orchestra": https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/mixing-an-orchestra/
  • Beat, couldn't round that to some value of pi?  That would be the music of the spheres, then...

    It's interesting that VSL sampled the Dimension Strings package with the ratio I originally used, 8-8-6-6-4 (which is why I used it, silly me).  I'd be curious to know the logic behind that.

    I've tried an esnemble with 8-6-4-3-2 which I found online as a recommendation for a small orchestra.  It sounds very nice actually, very crisp.  However, the 3 cellos are rather a concern for divisi work.  Have to play with that a bit.  As I prefer a little more deep bottom end, I might try 8-6-4-4-2.

    Michael


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    @mjmyers60 said:

    Beat, couldn't round that to some value of pi?  That would be the music of the spheres, then...

    Hi Michael

    Good idea! OK let us bring pi into the story as well...

    As long as we can treat each section with EQs, Volume Faders, Boosters, Compressors and Maximizers we also can vary the number of players a bit. That's why I see the number of instruments of the Dimension Strings Library more as "a pool of possible instruments" than "the correct orchestra" for each case.

    Another interesting point in connection with the number of players per section:

    We only had the Solo Strings and the Orchestra Strings in the early days of VSL but no chambers. How did we solve the problem to play orchestras in "chamber-size"? We played the piece with the orchestra library and also with the solo strings. Then we mixed and balanced both so that we got a sort of chamber orchestra. This means:

    Adding a solo instrument to an ensemble of 14 violins does not sound as 15 violins in any case. No, the mixing ratio can turn the sound into a rich sounding smaller ensemble... Funny isn't it. As an example: Partita in E, Bach/Mangiagalli (played by the Orchestra Library combined and balanced with the Solo Strings, 2003!)

    This may show as well and once more that we have completely another situation here with samples than with real orchestras.

    Beat


    - Tips & Tricks while using Samples of VSL.. see at: https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/vitutorials/ - Tutorial "Mixing an Orchestra": https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/mixing-an-orchestra/
  • Re-recorded with a smaller ensemble, 8-6-4-4-2.

    https://soundcloud.com/tensivity/warlock-capriol-suite-complete

    I think it sounds very nice, but let me know what you think!

    Michael


  • Yes, sounds nice balanced. What does Mirabile think? He opened this matter...


    - Tips & Tricks while using Samples of VSL.. see at: https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/vitutorials/ - Tutorial "Mixing an Orchestra": https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/mixing-an-orchestra/
  • Better spatial disposition would much benefit the overall sound, especially  if you could make it less "flat" and more "3D". Since you are already using DS, you can try using different reverb instances with depth variations for individual stands. Or try MIR - it does work wonders with DS.  


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    @goran_tsch said:

    Better spatial disposition would much benefit the overall sound, especially  if you could make it less "flat" and more "3D". Since you are already using DS, you can try using different reverb instances with depth variations for individual stands. Or try MIR - it does work wonders with DS.  

     

    Goran, thanks for the input.  I used MIRx on this recording, which is of course limited in terms of spatial positioning.  I have MIR Pro24 but that is too limiting for the number of instruments I use, since in my VE setup I use multiple instances of the same instrument to accomodate divisi passages.  

    Any thoughts on the different MIRx reverb alternatives for different stands?  Would that be a matter of adjusting the wet/dry ratio?

    I intend to purchase the full version but it's not in the budget at the moment.  

    By the way, I've also been considering taking your classes at Vienna Academy, but that's not in the budget either at the moment.  Although the dollar is still strong, and I keep thinking of the discounts on the additional software I could use...

    😃

    Best,

    Michael


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    @mjmyers60 said:

    Any thoughts on the different MIRx reverb alternatives for different stands?  Would that be a matter of adjusting the wet/dry ratio?

    I intend to purchase the full version but it's not in the budget at the moment.  

    By the way, I've also been considering taking your classes at Vienna Academy, but that's not in the budget either at the moment.  Although the dollar is still strong, and I keep thinking of the discounts on the additional software I could use...



    You could try use a "normal" reverb (f.e. the one in your sequencer) and

    a) route individual stands to the same reverb on different send levels  

    b) route individual stands to different dedicated reverb instances (slightly modified in the "depth" department (yes, with different dry/wet ratios, possibly slight differences in predelay settings as well)) - however, this solution could quickly get CPU intensive (depends on your machine...)

    You can try experimenting with MIR 24 as well - if you are using DS you can already set up a solid chamber orchestra ensemble (f.e. 8-6-4-4-2) and use divisi as you please. 

    On Vienna Training Center - in autumn & winter I will be adding two bonus projects dealing with setting up different orchestral string sections in MIR using different combinations of Orchestral, Chamber, Solo & DS patches, based on the Wagner and Mozart examples here. These will be added to modules 6 & 7, which can be purchased separately. BTW, all new bonus projects are available not only to the current & new participants, but to VTC alumnae/alumni as well (without any aditional cost) 😉

    Best,

    Goran


  • PaulP Paul moved this topic from Orchestration & Composition on