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MIR/VEP Volume Changes Affecting Reverb Tails
Last post Fri, May 20 2016 by Dietz, 9 replies.
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Posted on Thu, Apr 07 2016 15:50
by Pyre
Joined on Thu, Jun 28 2012, Posts 149

Hi everyone,

I'm working on an atmospheric ballad with massive reverbs and slow attack strings, for which I'm using my absolute favourite MIR venue, the Steinhofkirche. I have the reverb time at the full 8 seconds, but the dry/wet offset at -30% as it's mixing the orchestral instruments with much more 'in your face' guitars. I am generating the slow attack swell by raising the velocity crossfade from 50 up to 80 and then back down to 50 for each note, which creates an initial swell then sustained by the reverb while the next note fades in. I have also sometimes raised the attack slider to 30, my first time using it on anything other than 0.

I am using MIR's automation mapping to adjust instrument volumes between verse and chorus sections, and I notice that the level of the reverb tail changes as well. This means that the lush reverb hanging from the last chorus chord suddenly dips as the instrument levels change for the upcoming verse, which sounds very disruptive in the track.

Is there a way that VEP and MIR can be set to adjust instrument levels only, without affecting the reverb level? As if it were a reverb bus plugin, and I was adjusting the send level to the bus rather than the return from it? Currently my VEP template is set up with a MIR plugin for each track, marked (inline), is there another setting there that would work better?

Or would I be better off adjusting the volumes using the CC7 and CC11 controls, which as far as I can tell are pre-reverb and adjust the raw instrument level? Am I simply looking at this the wrong way, treating MIR as a traditional reverb and not the mixing/virtual hall environment solution it truly is?

Many thanks,

Pyre

PS... Also, while looking at the attack slider on VIP for the first time, I noticed a release slider as well. I know the attack slider works by fading in the volume on a sample, could I ask how exactly the release slider works please? Is it that setting the slider at 127 will play back the whole end of the sample, and any lower than that fades it out quicker, and we are simply used to hearing the samples fade out when the slider is set at the default of 63? Or is it that it fades out the end below 63 but boosts it when higher than 63? Or is it more of a time-based algorithm, like the time stretching feature? If its method of operation is confidential, I completely understand not sharing its secrets; I'm just trying to work out what setting to use for the 'real', unaltered sample sound. Mostly out of curiosity, though - I'm used to hearing it set at 63, so I'm probably going to leave it set like that most of the time.

AMD Ryzen 7 3700X 8-Core Processor, 3.59 Ghz
64 GB RAM
1 TB hard drive for audio, 4 TB hard drive for libraries, 1x 256 GB SSD for OS
Audient iD14 4-in 2-out USB interface
Korg Triton Extreme-76 master keyboard, M-Audio MidAir-25 lap keyboard.

Windows 10 Pro, Cubase 10.5 Pro
VSL Symphonic Cube (Full library), Vienna Choir (standard library), Vienna Solo Voices (standard library), Vienna Imperial, Konzerthaus Organ, and download instruments Recorders, Harpsichord, Basset Horn and Contrabass Clarinet.
Vienna Instruments Pro 2.5.18635 and Vienna Ensemble Pro 5.4.16181
Vienna Suite, Vienna MIR and room packs 1-5
Sibelius 7 and Komplete 8
All 64-bit.
Posted on Thu, Apr 07 2016 16:21
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7727

Hi Pyre,

MIR Pro is indeed instantiated pre-fader in VE Pro, therefore any change of a channel's Volume Fader will affect the reverb tail, too. Your assumption is right that MIDI CC messages should be used to control the _performance_ of an instrument (opposed to its volume as part of a mix). 

... I'll leave the answer regarding the implementation of Vienna Instruments' Release slider to someone else, as your question made me unsure whether _I_ completely understood all of its finesse (or not) 8-) ...

Kind regards,

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Sat, Apr 09 2016 01:56
by Pyre
Joined on Thu, Jun 28 2012, Posts 149

Thanks Dietz, that's great to know. I've adjusted the track so the volume changes are done with CC7 instead of the faders, and it sounds great!

AMD Ryzen 7 3700X 8-Core Processor, 3.59 Ghz
64 GB RAM
1 TB hard drive for audio, 4 TB hard drive for libraries, 1x 256 GB SSD for OS
Audient iD14 4-in 2-out USB interface
Korg Triton Extreme-76 master keyboard, M-Audio MidAir-25 lap keyboard.

Windows 10 Pro, Cubase 10.5 Pro
VSL Symphonic Cube (Full library), Vienna Choir (standard library), Vienna Solo Voices (standard library), Vienna Imperial, Konzerthaus Organ, and download instruments Recorders, Harpsichord, Basset Horn and Contrabass Clarinet.
Vienna Instruments Pro 2.5.18635 and Vienna Ensemble Pro 5.4.16181
Vienna Suite, Vienna MIR and room packs 1-5
Sibelius 7 and Komplete 8
All 64-bit.
Posted on Thu, May 19 2016 01:44
by Pyre
Joined on Thu, Jun 28 2012, Posts 149

Hi all,

Further to the above question, could I add a feature request please? How easy would it be to implement a method for switching the positioning of the MIR send/return in the VEP effect chain?

At its most basic, this could be a basic fader plugin that could be inserted pre-MIR just like the Vienna Suite EQ with just the output level control (I have tried doing this, but as the EQ output level only goes down to -30, and the VEP faders go down to -60, the resolution steps are different and so my existing fader automation doesn't match). At a more complicated level, it would be fantastic to have the option to put the MIR send last in a chain after buses, so that group levels could be set pre-reverb, just as one would with a traditional reverb bus.

I'm honestly not sure how this would work with the volume and panning adjustments that MIR also makes to the sound. I just wondered if there were a way around it, it's really nice being able to control instrument volume when mixing using automation rather than CC numbers (higher resolution, much easier to see on-screen), and having three different points to control the volume (CC11, CC7 and VEP fader) is really helpful (I use CC11 for instrument performance smoothing, CC7 for section performance smoothing, and the VEP fader for section levels within a mix). And while it's useful to be able to control the output level post-reverb, in my case it would be much more useful pre-reverb, as changes afterward sound like mixing/production alterations rather than performance ones. Am I right in thinking that an old version of VEP/MIR had a pre/post switch, or am I imagining that?

Many thanks,

Pyre

AMD Ryzen 7 3700X 8-Core Processor, 3.59 Ghz
64 GB RAM
1 TB hard drive for audio, 4 TB hard drive for libraries, 1x 256 GB SSD for OS
Audient iD14 4-in 2-out USB interface
Korg Triton Extreme-76 master keyboard, M-Audio MidAir-25 lap keyboard.

Windows 10 Pro, Cubase 10.5 Pro
VSL Symphonic Cube (Full library), Vienna Choir (standard library), Vienna Solo Voices (standard library), Vienna Imperial, Konzerthaus Organ, and download instruments Recorders, Harpsichord, Basset Horn and Contrabass Clarinet.
Vienna Instruments Pro 2.5.18635 and Vienna Ensemble Pro 5.4.16181
Vienna Suite, Vienna MIR and room packs 1-5
Sibelius 7 and Komplete 8
All 64-bit.
Posted on Thu, May 19 2016 14:31
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7727

Originally Posted by: Pyre Go to Quoted Post
Further to the above question, could I add a feature request please? How easy would it be to implement a method for switching the positioning of the MIR send/return in the VEP effect chain?

[...]

Hi Pyre,

thanks for your suggestion.

I think I understand what you're asking for. :-) But please keep in mind that MIR is an "Reverberation and MIXING engine", by definition - not an instrument. For me and many others, it feels quite natural that the MIR Icon controls the output volume derived from MIR, not the input signal's volume. In that context, MIR is acting more like an (intelligent) mixing console, where a channel's fader controls the level sent into the bus rather than the input gain.

If you really need another stage of gain control (apart from the options given by virtual instruments themselves already), please insert one of the countless plug-ins that are meant to do that before MIR. VE Pro's built-in Matrix Mixer comes to mind, or Vienna Suite's Power Pan, for example, but there are many, many more. You can control them either manually, or by means of MIDI remote control / automation mapping.

Kind regards,

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Fri, May 20 2016 12:21
by Pyre
Joined on Thu, Jun 28 2012, Posts 149

Hi Dietz, no problem, will do. I hadn't seen the Matrix Mixer before (I thought from the name that it would be something to do with mixing different VI matrices at different levels), it looks incredibly powerful. Are there any plugins you would recommend for transparently adding gain that will work happily with VEP?

AMD Ryzen 7 3700X 8-Core Processor, 3.59 Ghz
64 GB RAM
1 TB hard drive for audio, 4 TB hard drive for libraries, 1x 256 GB SSD for OS
Audient iD14 4-in 2-out USB interface
Korg Triton Extreme-76 master keyboard, M-Audio MidAir-25 lap keyboard.

Windows 10 Pro, Cubase 10.5 Pro
VSL Symphonic Cube (Full library), Vienna Choir (standard library), Vienna Solo Voices (standard library), Vienna Imperial, Konzerthaus Organ, and download instruments Recorders, Harpsichord, Basset Horn and Contrabass Clarinet.
Vienna Instruments Pro 2.5.18635 and Vienna Ensemble Pro 5.4.16181
Vienna Suite, Vienna MIR and room packs 1-5
Sibelius 7 and Komplete 8
All 64-bit.
Posted on Fri, May 20 2016 13:40
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7727

Changing a signal's gain is not exactly rocket science ;-D , so any properly designed plug-in should do. If you really want something else than the built-in mixing matrix plug-in, you could (ab)use the volume control of any other plug-in you tend to use before MIR, like an EQ, compressor, harmonic effect, etc.

Of course there are dozens of 3rd-party freeware audio tools, too, that were made for volume control. Most of them are teasers for more elaborate plug-ins of the same manufacturer, like Sonalksis' "FreeG" (which I happen to use myself from time to time), or Melda Productions' free "MUtility".

HTH,

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Fri, May 20 2016 15:54
by Pyre
Joined on Thu, Jun 28 2012, Posts 149

Fantastic, thanks very much, that Sonalksis one works brilliantly, has loads of +/- leeway, and doesn't seem to use too much processing power. Looking forward to comparing how different my choir sounds with +30 gain before hitting MIR instead of after. Thanks!

AMD Ryzen 7 3700X 8-Core Processor, 3.59 Ghz
64 GB RAM
1 TB hard drive for audio, 4 TB hard drive for libraries, 1x 256 GB SSD for OS
Audient iD14 4-in 2-out USB interface
Korg Triton Extreme-76 master keyboard, M-Audio MidAir-25 lap keyboard.

Windows 10 Pro, Cubase 10.5 Pro
VSL Symphonic Cube (Full library), Vienna Choir (standard library), Vienna Solo Voices (standard library), Vienna Imperial, Konzerthaus Organ, and download instruments Recorders, Harpsichord, Basset Horn and Contrabass Clarinet.
Vienna Instruments Pro 2.5.18635 and Vienna Ensemble Pro 5.4.16181
Vienna Suite, Vienna MIR and room packs 1-5
Sibelius 7 and Komplete 8
All 64-bit.
Posted on Fri, May 20 2016 16:04
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7727

Originally Posted by: Pyre Go to Quoted Post
Looking forward to comparing how different my choir sounds with +30 gain before hitting MIR instead of after. Thanks!

Unless you introduce another variable, it will sound exactly as before, just 30 dB louder. 8-) It's linear convolution. 

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
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