Vienna Ensemble performance in Logic/OSX

[1offby]

Vienna Ensemble Pro 5.4.14074

OS X 10.11.3/Logic Pro 10.2.2

Various Mac Pro machines

Some of this has been addressed elsewhere in the forums.

I've been testing Vienna Ensemble Pro as a solution for a composer's workstation using four machines: a Mac Pro for Logic, 2 Windows 7 machines for samples, and another Mac Pro for Pro Tools. I am using an adaptation of the Multiport setup.

All instruments are hosted in Kontakt.

The ethernet switch is correctly clibrated.

Our top priorities are very low latency for live MIDI throughput and as-tight-as-possible timing on playback.

Results with Vienna Ensemble have been very impressive. Live MIDI throughput latency is extremely low. On playback we are able to achieve a much higher voice count than in our current setup, all while maintaining a 128 sample buffer size in Logic's Audio Preferences. Audio returns into Logic are close to sample accurate.

However, the system starts to fail under these conditions:

1.  An External MIDI instrument track is selected
2. That External MIDI track is sending MIDI data into a Vienna Ensemble Pro instance via the Multiport Environment
3. The local machine or external sampler that is the destination of the track in step (2) is also recieving a lot of MIDI data from playback tracks, and many Kontakt voices are in use during playback
4. The transport is active and lots of MIDI is being sent from Logic into VE Pro
5. Any MIDI input (even a single note-on) is sent into the track from step (2)
6. Logic will immediately overload, stutter, and crackle. Logic will throw an error message like "Sample Rate 40,353 detected," the transport has to be stopped, and MIDI panic has to be triggered to resume work.

The OSX activity monitor shows even core usage across the real cores; the Logic CPU/HD monitor shows the highest numbered core at full use and the first 3-4 cores at moderate load. Logic's Multithreading setting can be in any state; the issue remains.

The satellite machines show no performance overload or peaking. They are robust dual-cpu Intel Xeon units with 64 GB RAM.

If the track at step (2) is sending to a VE Pro instance on a machine that is not receiving a lot of MIDI data, the issue at step (6) will not happen.

Some of this can be solved by increasing Logic's I/O Buffer Size. However, increasing even to 1024 samples does not eliminate the behavior. Also, increasing the buffer size eliminates the wonderfully quick MIDI throughput. Since the behavior requires a total stop of playback and MIDI Panic it is more annoying than the issues we face using a different setup. 

I tested Vienna Ensemble Pro 5 on a Windows 10 machine running Cubase 8.5+ and found none of the behavior at step (6) above.<<(SOMEONE AT APPLE SHOULD TAKE NOTE OF THIS. AS OF AT LEAST 2013 AUDIO PERFORMANCE IS BETTER UNDER WINDOWS THAN OSX)

I also did the above test running Cubase 8.5+ on OSX and the behavior was more-or-less the same. 

Since my use requires Logic I am curious:

1. Is the issue at step (6) above something to do with Vienna Ensemble on OS X, Core Audio, Audio Units, Logic, or something else?
2. If the answer to (1) is Core Audio, Audio Units, or Logic how can I best describe this behavior to Apple?
3. Would an Audio Unit 3 Vienna Ensemble Pro build resolve this behavior?

Currently the behavior at step (6) makes Vienna Ensemble a not-workable solution for this workstation. However, Vienna Ensemble Pro 5 does seem like the best way to host large sample libraries.

Maybe there will be a Logic update that supports AU v3 soon?

FYI: I tested this using many instances of Cinesamples Piano In Blue and Spitfire Audio Mural strings, each of which use a lot of voices. Using a Logic I/O buffer of 128 samples, when live MIDI was not being input VE Pro was able to process 20 actively playing Mural instruments; about 1200 voices! With live MIDI input that number of Mural instruments that could be active before overload was 2-3.

[Cyril Blanc]

can you show us a screen copy of your Midi Input object in the Environnement of Logic ?

[1offby]

Thank you Cyril; I am attaching files here. A screenshot of the VE Pro environment layer and the Logic 10.2.2 session used for testing.

I tested the Logic file again before compressing it and the behavior is exactly as initially reported,

Best, 1offby

VEPROtest4VSL03.zip-1696293610930-yjcg2.zip

[Cyril Blanc]

I have add a layer in the environnement that is dealing with input

Check if that is solving your problem

VEPROtest4VSL03 modif cb.zip-1696293611046-oyjso.zip

[1offby]

Thank you, I'll check it soon.

Looks like this modified version simply adds teh default "click+ports" Environment layer back into the Miltuport template.

1) the only modification is adding back click+ports. Is this correct?

2) Am I correct that the VE Pro Multiport v2 templates do NOT have the click+ports layer?

Regarding (2) I found this to be a cute solution on the part of VE Pro--I never knew that the sequencer input object could be deleted and MIDI input still work.

Curious:

3) was removing the click+ports environment objects in the Multiport v2 templates done to enhance performance?

Best, 1offby

[Cyril Blanc]

>  Looks like this modified version simply adds teh default "click+ports" Environment layer

It's only dealing with physcal input and it is allowing to monitor them

> 1) the only modification is adding back click+ports. Is this correct?

there is also the physical object

 

We where told to do so by Emagic a long time ago

All my songs contains this

If you did not had this you where getting a midi loop back 

Is that necessary any more ? no idea

This is why I told you to try this !

I cannot try it as I am stuck in bed. 

[1offby]

OK, I will check this soon.

I'm pretty sure there was no MIDI looping in the template I sent/have been testing.

The Physical Input object is part of teh "click & ports" layer--this layer is missing from the Multiport v2 templates VSL supplies for Logic X users. 

I wonder if VSL indends for "click & ports" to be missing? I assumed it was intentional.

Best, 1offby

[Cyril Blanc]

If you know everithing you do not need to post to have help

[Paul]

Hi 1offby, 

We will be looking into this in the next days. 

We have high hopes for AU3, once the initial bugs are fixed (we´re in contact with Apple). This could bring Logic Pro back on the map with other sequencers, in terms of huge templates with VE PRO. 

Best, 
Paul

[1offby]

@Cyril said:

If you know everithing you do not need to post to have help

Well, I definitely don't know everything, and I do benefit from using forums as part of my learning.

I appreciate you sending the version using the Click + Ports layer Cyril!

Regarding the Multiport v2 templates for Logic 10.1+, none of them seem to have Physical Input/Sequencer Input objects. With this setup any non-Vienna MIDI sent to the local machine will transmit MIDI through the currently selected track in Logic. This includes the IAC Bus, any network MIDI, and external controllers.

Cyril is right--this does lead to MIDI looping.

As I wrote above, my assumption was that this was a use of the Environment that added performance, something I didn't know.

I still wonder:

Does the lack of Logic's default "Click & Ports" layer is intentional in the VE Multiport Logic templates?

[1offby]

Paul and Cyril, having tested Cyril's version and a verion of my own using Physical Input cabled to the Sequencer Input object I'm pretty confident that this does not resolve the issue I described at the start of this thread.

Paul,

I can think of many reasons why combining live input with playback within an Audio Unit ecosystem would lead to issues with audio performance/timing/threading. Seems like a complex issue and I think it will be resolved soon for Logic 10.2+

A VE Pro 5/Dante system is the setup we want to adopt. However, it seems that Core Audio and/or Logic are not ready to perform as we require. So, for the short term, we will likely not start designing systems with VE Pro in mind.

I'll be following the developments closely and any technical info VSL can provide to assiste me discussing the issue with Apple is appreciated.

Two questions:

1) Is VSL able to reproduce this overloading?

2) Are the VSL Logic 10.1+ Multiport templates not supposed to have a Physical Input/Sequencer input?

Many thanks, 1offby

[Paul]

Hi 1offby, 

Tricky situation there. 

The answers to your questions: 

1) Is VSL able to reproduce this overloading?

=> We tried, but "only" with a few Kontakt Komplete 8 Libraries. We don´t have Cinesamples and Spitfire Strings here to test, could be that this is causing troubles as well 

2) Are the VSL Logic 10.1+ Multiport templates not supposed to have a Physical Input/Sequencer input?

=> To be honest, I´m not sure. The Multiport Template was invented as a work-around, and changing the setup, e.g., by adding inputs, can destabilize things.

Although you have done a lot of testing already, I´d still experiment a bit more with Logic Process Buffer Range and make sure that Sample Accurate Automation is set to "Off" in /Preferences/Audio/Devices... maybe it makes a difference.

You have already checked the Threads per Instance Settings in VE PRO, maybe it pays off to check how diffferent multiprocessing Prefs in Logic, VE PRO and Kontakt could be adjusted additionally, and I´d deactivate the Kontakt Memory Server as well.

To be honest: It could also pay off to wait until we get a working AU3 solution....

Best, 
Paul 

[1offby]

@Paul said:

Sample Accurate Automation is set to "Off" in /Preferences/Audio/Devices... maybe it makes a difference.

To be honest: It could also pay off to wait until we get a working AU3 solution....

In our case Sample Accurate Automation has been "On" in order to address another workaround having to do with the Logic X MIDI Scripter. I will test with that parameter disabled, and further test the settings you suggest.

I agree that an AU3 implementation is likely superior. Workarounds in general aren't dependable. I hope that implementation in Logic arrives soon and with few issues.

Since this issue does not exist in an all-Windows workflow, and its onset is exactly consistent with sending live MIDI during Logic playback I think the issue is not with Kontakt or those particular libraries.

As for the VSL supplied Multiport templates in my opinion the "Click & Ports" layer should probably be added back unless someone at VSL knows why it isn't there. As mentioned I thought this was an intentional solution. In practice it's a recipe for MIDI looping.

Thank you for your help, best, John Crooks

[1offby]

1. I was incorrect--my testing Logic setup has Sample Accurate Automation set to "Off."
2. There is no combination of Logic settings that makes the issue decribed at the start of this thread go away completely

Best, 1offby

[Ashermusic]

I recommend staying away from the  Multiport approach with Logic and VE Pro.

[quasi]

@Ashermusic said:

I recommend staying away from the  Multiport approach with Logic and VE Pro.

 

Why do you recommend that? My problem is that I trying to create a Track in logic with multiport support, but I do not know how to do it. If I don't use this option I have to create a lot of instances of VEP.

[Ashermusic]

Because it is an inefficient hot mess and way more complicated than necessary. I get paid to help people set up templates with Logic Pro and VE Pro, but here are the basics:

1. Set up VE Pro like a score page: 1 v-frame for e.g. Violin 1 with its desired articulations in one Play or Kotnakt instrumenrt, depending on which libraries you use, then another for Violin 2, another for Viola, etc.

2. Connect each to a stereo instance in Logic Pro, either as a multi-timbral software instrument packed in a Folder Stack, or just  one track if  you use an articulation switcher like the SkiSwitcher 2, AG Toolkit Pro, or Arts Conductor.