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Konzerthaus Organ
Last post Sun, May 29 2016 by roberto, 21 replies.
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Posted on Tue, May 10 2016 19:27
by roberto
Joined on Mon, Aug 11 2008, Posts 121

Hello,

I've just got the Konzerhaus Organ. Really impressive!!

I wonder how I can have different registrations for each manual (in a polyphonic writing) without using more tracks on different channels (one for every manual).

I use Logic and I control the articulation switch in Hyper Editor. 

What I did is to create 4 tracks (one per each manual) and I gave each one an individual organ. In this way it works but mybe there is a more "elegant" way using only one track with 3 staves (pentagrams) as normally for the organ writing.

Any help?

Thanks a lot 

Roberto

Posted on Tue, May 10 2016 21:33
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7288

Thanks for the friendly feedback! We had a great time recording this incredible instrument.

For me, the most elegant way to play it is to use Vienna Ensemble or Vienna Ensemble Pro to host as many instances of Vienna Instruments as the number of ranks you plan to combine. Set their MIDI channels to the same value (or keep manuals and pedals on separate channels, if you prefer that approach). Now you can combine ranks either by switching VE-tracks on and off, or by muting/unmuting them, while the sample-players will react to the same incoming MIDI notes.

HTH,

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Tue, May 10 2016 22:39
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5397

Another simple way is to have one channel/track for the entire organ (or manual), build a matrix or preset in Vienna Ensemble that uses the selected stop/registration patches the particular piece of music is going to use, and have keyswitches to control the changes.  Also, if you have combinations of individual stops to be played simultaneously these can be done within VI.  The organ's range leaves plenty of room for keyswitches at the top or bottom and so it is easy to build the preset or matrix by simply adding stops or registrations to the cells. You can see the entire lineup of stops all at once within the instrument channel in Vienna Ensemble which helps figuring out what to add or delete. 

Posted on Wed, May 11 2016 08:10
by roberto
Joined on Mon, Aug 11 2008, Posts 121

Thank you Dietz,

yes, what you told me is actually what I did. I use VE Pro and I insert 4 organs, each one connected with one track. In Logic, Hyper Editor - via controllers - I can switch from different patches in the matrix I create.

The sound it works perfectly, it's only a strange feling. like composing for a "organs quartet", wich might be difficult to perform! 

Than I go to Finale for the final score.

Please, one more question: I didn't understand how I can activate the noises patches (register and the noises of the room).

Thanks a lot for your time

Roberto

Posted on Wed, May 11 2016 08:34
by roberto
Joined on Mon, Aug 11 2008, Posts 121

Thank you William,

You propose a different approach wich, I've to say, It's still not clear to me. I don't use keyswitches but controllers, but this doesn't change anything (...as far as I know).

What I don't understand is how you can use simultaneously different stops (patches) if you have only one track for the entire organ. The only way I can imagine would be to give to each voice a different channel and connect each channel to a different VI organ in VE pro. Let's say: 4 voices composition, 4 channels, 4 organs (one per channel) and than switch to different stops via controllers. 

I will study your approach, in any case.

thanks a lot and good work to you

Roberto

Posted on Wed, May 11 2016 12:02
by roberto
Joined on Mon, Aug 11 2008, Posts 121

Hello Dietz,

don't lose time to anwer. I find out how to use the noises. Very simple!

Best

Roberto

Posted on Wed, May 11 2016 16:09
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5397

If you use Vienna Instruments Pro, you can layer up to 8 individual patches within the editor, and control transposition and level.  So you could have your own registrations of up to 8 stops simultaneously on one channel that way.  You would just open the instrument channel in Vienna Ensemble and start dragging files to the slots.  That is all in one cell.  You can have another group of 8 on the next cell, and so on.  You're right about it not being necessary to use keyswitches, but I got used to it because they are very easy to see and use, and you somewhat get used to one sound being on C1, another on C#1, etc.

Posted on Wed, May 11 2016 17:22
by Paul
Joined on Sat, Aug 03 2002, Vienna, Posts 11448

Hi, 

Thanks, William!

Just wanted to add: It´s actually 16 slots  for each cell nowin VI PRO. 

Best, 
Paul

Paul Kopf
Product Manager - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Wed, May 11 2016 19:43
by roberto
Joined on Mon, Aug 11 2008, Posts 121

Hello William and Paul,

Yes, I've VI Pro (the old one, with 8 slots) and I often use this tecnic, specially with strings.

I've tryed and actually it perfectly works with organ too, creating an effect that I don't think it exist in reality: a slot "cross fade" between 2 stops or registers. I'll ask to my friend organist. VERY INTERESTING! 

What I'm not able to do (I'll go back to the VI Pro manual) is to shift, or switch, between slot 1 to slot 2 (in vertical).

From 1a to 1b I do it in Hyper Editor (Logic). but how to move in vertical? I'll study it.

Anyway, very usefull tip! I'll let you know If I discover some other thing. 

Thanks a lot and let's go on!

Roberto

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Posted on Thu, May 12 2016 02:21
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5397

Paul - wow!  16?  I've got to get the new version.  That is fantastic.

Roberto, there is no need to do a crossfade unless you want.  If you do not mark an "X" between the slots, then they just play equally, so it is the same as layering them.  With 16 now - you can do any concievable "custom" registration of this great instrument.   

On switching between the slots, you don't need to because you can switch to a different cell which has a different layout corresponding to the changes you want.  The slots are there for creating single customized voice which in the case of the organ would be a particular registration not already covered in the registration samples.

I am very interested in this because it is such a beautiful job of recording one of the great organs of the world.  Certainly one of the most outstanding sample libraries VSL ever released.

Posted on Thu, May 12 2016 14:59
by GoranTch
Joined on Tue, Mar 14 2006, Berlin, Posts 524

Originally Posted by: William Go to Quoted Post

On switching between the slots, you don't need to because you can switch to a different cell which has a different layout corresponding to the changes you want.  The slots are there for creating single customized voice which in the case of the organ would be a particular registration not already covered in the registration samples.



Exactly. As William points out, slots aren't designed for the purpose od switching between different patches, that's what cells are for. (This seems to be a relatively common misunderstanding, I often notice VSL users at first having some conceptual difficulties with getting patch-slot-cell-matrix-preset relations right.)

Posted on Thu, May 12 2016 21:08
by roberto
Joined on Mon, Aug 11 2008, Posts 121

Yes, dear Williams and Goran

This was a misunderstdanding for me too, because I never was in need to create a new complex sound. Now it's clear. Slots, for the organ, are ment to create new regitstrations. And this will be very usefull.

Still my "problem" is: how to have a, let's say, 4 voices counterpoint (SATB) with 4 different registrations (1 for each voice - in 3 different manuals + the pedals)? Still the only way I see is to create 4 tracks, each one with a different organ (VI pro in VE Pro).

This the structure, the rest is "the color". 

I'll be away one week...

Thanks a lot for your time

Roberto

Posted on Fri, May 13 2016 14:37
by MassMover
Joined on Mon, Sep 29 2008, Posts 234

Use Vienna Ensemble and load four instances of Vienna Instruments PRO, one for each SATB Voice. Now you simply use a polyphonic organ staff in Locics Score editor. As you probably know, logics per-note Midi channel controls the polyphony in the score editor. When you set the track's midi output setting (in the property section of the arrange window) to "all" the per-note channel-information will be forwarded to Vienna Ensemble, so that notes on channel 4 will be played by your 4th instance of VI, which should be your pedal-manual.

Posted on Sat, May 14 2016 14:50
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5397

Paul,

I actually have the latest version of VI and just found out why I didn't know there were 16 slots - I always build custom presets and the additional 8 are totally hidden until the cursor moves over the field while placing a patch into the slot or the cell !  Otherwise, it looks exactly like it looked when there were only 8.

Best,

Bill

Posted on Sat, May 14 2016 17:34
by Paul
Joined on Sat, Aug 03 2002, Vienna, Posts 11448

Hi Bill, 

That´s why I thought I´d point it out once again. 

Best, 
Paul

Paul Kopf
Product Manager - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Sat, May 14 2016 18:23
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5397

VSL is simply doing too many improvements to keep track of !  

Posted on Sat, May 28 2016 14:36
by roberto
Joined on Mon, Aug 11 2008, Posts 121

Hello MassMover,

sorry for my late answer but I've been away.

So, yes, in this way it works. The only limit is that in this way I still can't  control every single voice (channel). What if I want to change register, let's say, only to the S or the A, or any other voice indipendently?

Of course I can control the change of the patches in the matrix in Hiper Editor (Logic) via Controllers but when I do so I can control only 1 voice. The others dont reacts.

The only way I can have a full control is creating four different tracks, each with one organ, and than I can do whatever I want as in a string quartet. Of course I've than I've to copy in a realistic score (in Finale) the all work.It's not too bad.

Do you have any other idea?

thanks a lot

Roberto

Posted on Sat, May 28 2016 16:14
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7288

Did you actually try my suggestion, using the tracks of Vienna Ensemble for controlling your registrations? Pulling up the track volume is then like bringing in an additional stop. All instruments can respond to the same MIDI-channel, or just four different ones for manuals and pedal.

Kind regards,

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Sat, May 28 2016 16:26
by MassMover
Joined on Mon, Sep 29 2008, Posts 234

I would think that if you set the midi channel of the controller that switches your matrix to the corresponding value that should also be forwarded to VE, so when you insert a controller on channel 4 this should only affect your 4th instance of VI inside VE.

Posted on Sat, May 28 2016 18:08
by Beat Kaufmann
Joined on Fri, Jan 03 2003, Switzerland/Brugg, Posts 1720

Even if it is a combination of all which was said above...

Have a look here as well: http://www.beat-kaufmann.com/vitutorials/vi-tips--tricks-3/index.php  (no. 22.) 

Best

Beat

www.musik-produktion-createc.ch (Konzertaufnahmen, Musik mit Samples)
at www.beat-kaufmann.com : MIXING an ORCHESTRA - TUTORIAL
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