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TRANSPOSITION TRICK BUTTON
Last post Wed, Jun 29 2016 by LuCsa, 26 replies.
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Posted on Sun, Jun 12 2016 18:40
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5639

I thought I should tone this thread down - however it would be nice to have - as  others have suggested - a single switch in Vienna Instruments for transposition up and pitch shift down of an instrument that would thereby create instantly a new non-phasing instrument which did not require any additional steps in the MIDI sequencing. 

Posted on Mon, Jun 13 2016 01:55
by jasensmith
Joined on Tue, Jan 15 2008, Arizona, Posts 1582

The problem with creating a template that already achieves this goal is that you would still have to transpose the MIDI data which isn't really a big deal but it adds a step and becomes time consuming.

What I was thinking was, within VEP, you insert two VIP Pro instances of say solo violins.  Both instances would be the solo violin but the second instance would be the transposed instance by whatever the user chooses, ie 1/2 step, whole step, up, down, etc.

With that second instance the transposition occurs internally so the user doesn't have to think about it.  In other words, when you play a C6 in the first instance you hear the original C6 recorded sample. When you play a C6 in the second transposed instance you hear the C# 6 sample transposed down to C6 because the software makes the transposition internally.  So sonically you wouldn't hear much of a difference between the C6 of the two instances but the second instance is transposed.  This method would dummy proof the process and perhaps make things easier for notation software so you don't have to print the score out as originally written then go back to transpose the 2nd violin for playback purposes.

Three things come to mind:

1. The second instance would be off kilter by a 1/2 step down in the example above, meaning you would loose the very top note but gain a 1/2 step on the bottom.

2. Since the Special Editions are sampled at whole tone I don't know what the implications of this transpose trick button would be.

3. The VSL software engineers have been able to work some wondrous magic over the years and I would imagine that this wouldn't be too challenging but I guess that's why I'm not a software engineer

In the end, all this is is an anti phasing issue which I know has been achieved in other music software applications.  


"If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then quit. There's no point in being a damn fool about it."
- W.C. Fields
Posted on Mon, Jun 13 2016 11:39
by javajam
Joined on Sun, Mar 13 2005, Paris, France, Posts 170

You would have to transpose a whole step whatever... Not every note has been sampled in Dimension and you'll get some phase issue then.

Posted on Mon, Jun 13 2016 15:57
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5639

It is best to transpose up, not down, because in general a pitch shift down sounds better, especially with things like vibrato which start getting faster and more jittery when pitch shifted up and timbre becomes more metallic and harsh.  Pitch shifted down everything becomes slightly darker and more mellow.   

What I was thinking about was simply:

1) Duplicate channel of the first instrument

2) Hit the button

No other steps.  Since a pitch shift and a transposition are available within Vienna Instruments it could be done though it may be difficult to program.

Posted on Thu, Jun 16 2016 11:11
by LAJ
Joined on Sun, Dec 13 2009, Posts 533

Das wünsche ich mir auch schon lange und würde das nach wie vor gerne IM VI sehen, Außerdem ist alleine der Begriff "Transposition Trick" ja fast schon VSL-Kult! Höchste Zeit, sdass man einen Button mit dem Begriff kreiert.

English: wanna have this inside the VI too.

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Posted on Sun, Jun 19 2016 10:51
by jasensmith
Joined on Tue, Jan 15 2008, Arizona, Posts 1582

Originally Posted by: javajam Go to Quoted Post

You would have to transpose a whole step whatever... Not every note has been sampled in Dimension and you'll get some phase issue then.

 

I've never had a problem with transposing by only a half step but I don't use Dimension so that's a good point javajam.


"If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then quit. There's no point in being a damn fool about it."
- W.C. Fields
Posted on Sun, Jun 19 2016 11:04
by jasensmith
Joined on Tue, Jan 15 2008, Arizona, Posts 1582

Originally Posted by: William Go to Quoted Post

It is best to transpose up, not down, because in general a pitch shift down sounds better, especially with things like vibrato which start getting faster and more jittery when pitch shifted up and timbre becomes more metallic and harsh.  Pitch shifted down everything becomes slightly darker and more mellow.   

You know, you're right about that.  I had always heard what you're describing in my work and often wondered why it sounded that way.  I didn't realize it was becasue of the direction of the transposition.  Thanks for that tip.

 

Originally Posted by: William Go to Quoted Post

1) Duplicate channel of the first instrument

2) Hit the button

Wow William that's brilliant.  In nine words you crystalized my entire last post quite eloquently.  I'm a little embarrassed actually


"If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then quit. There's no point in being a damn fool about it."
- W.C. Fields
Posted on Sun, Jun 19 2016 11:13
by jasensmith
Joined on Tue, Jan 15 2008, Arizona, Posts 1582

Originally Posted by: LAJ Go to Quoted Post

Das wünsche ich mir auch schon lange und würde das nach wie vor gerne IM VI sehen, Außerdem ist alleine der Begriff "Transposition Trick" ja fast schon VSL-Kult! Höchste Zeit, sdass man einen Button mit dem Begriff kreiert.

Wow! that's a lot of German just to say...

Originally Posted by: LAJ Go to Quoted Post

wanna have this inside the VI too.

But then again, the only German I know is "mehr Bier bitte" (more beer please).  And come Oktoberfest that's really all the German you need to know


"If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then quit. There's no point in being a damn fool about it."
- W.C. Fields
Posted on Sun, Jun 19 2016 12:40
by JimmyHellfire
Joined on Tue, Dec 24 2013, Posts 335

It's important that the button is really called "Transposition Trick" in the GUI. The tooltip explanation should read: "does the transposition trick"

Posted on Sun, Jun 19 2016 12:55
by Bill
Joined on Fri, Sep 23 2005, Berkshires, MA, Posts 1042

The button I'd like to press would to be to purchase a newly released 2nd violin addon section, recorded by VSL with different players and samller section size....

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Posted on Sun, Jun 19 2016 15:01
by mh-7635
Joined on Wed, Aug 04 2004, Posts 192

I'm with Bill on this,  to hell with the transposition trick, how about a 2nd violins sections from VSL with all the artics and section sizes that the existing violins have. Come on guys at VSL, it's been too long now for you not to address this as you have been brilliant in so many other aspects. So many other libraries have a complete layout for a string section, why not you?

with the greatest respect,

Mike.

Posted on Sun, Jun 19 2016 19:06
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5639

I disagree with that statement. "Other libraries" are inferior to VSL in quality of recording, player performance, methodical sampling structure and on top of that they have nearly non-existent interfaces - crudely and lazily using Kontakt - or clumsy ones like Play - compared to the supreme elegance of VI, VE and MIR.  Don't imply that VSL is behind "other libraries."   

Secondly,  while "other libaries" are doing their "complete" string sections consisting of mediocre (but different) 2nd violins, VSL has been doing a few little things LIKE DIMENSION STRINGS - ever heard of that one? 

So instead of getting more stretched out samplings of few articulations with different players like "other libraries" -  you can get EVERY SAMPLE of every VSL library, no phasing, different sound because of the transposition to different samples, complexities of articulations, Dimension Strings, layering of Solo, Orchestral, Chamber, Appassionata - all with one button. 

Also - while more samples are always good, instantaneous sampling of every possibility doesn't happen on this dimensional plain.  So the question is - which is more advantageous to do now?  More sampled articulations and the ability to create instantly a whole new set for 2nd players, or fewer articulations stretched over more recorded players?   

Jason, I agree on the importance of that particular German.

Posted on Sun, Jun 19 2016 19:12
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5639

"The button I'd like to press would to be to purchase a newly released 2nd violin addon section, recorded by VSL with different players and samller section size...."  - BIll

What do you think Chamber violins is to Orchestral?  Or Orchestral to Appassionata?  Or Dimension is to itself or any other section?  Exactly what you just wrote.

So I assume you want to use all VSL strings simlutaneously, and want 2nd players as well.  You must be trying to outdo Berlioz! 

Posted on Mon, Jun 20 2016 09:49
by TFIS
Joined on Tue, Dec 14 2010, Posts 106

Maybe VSL could implement the transposition trick as "unsupported developer hidden function feature button thing".

So they don't need to blame themselves for not having a 2nd violin section.

;)

Posted on Mon, Jun 20 2016 10:21
by mh-7635
Joined on Wed, Aug 04 2004, Posts 192

William,

Your sarcasm is not appreciated, my point of view on this is valid and I will imply anything I deem to be representative of my opinion. I love VSL but they are not beyond reproach. (and yes I've heard of, bought and use professionally everyday, all of the VSL strings)

The transposition button is a good idea, but why have it when it's surely possible to have a dedicated set of samples for the 2nds?-- it comes across as a cobble because there are no 2nds. Having said that, if VSL are not forthcoming in this, the transposition button would be a more realistic thing to aim for as you have said, but come on William, don't you think it would be better to have dedicated samples that have as many articulations and section sizes as the 1st's, it can only help the realism.

Your prejudice to other libraries is unfair in some cases. Yes there is rubbish out there, but there is some good stuff too, one calls to mind Spitfire and Orchestral tools. None of course compare to VSL in terms of articulations, MIR and GUI design, but in terms of sound and musicality, there advantages to having these libraries aswell. (in fact essential for me as there are no 2nds in VSL). Of course it depends on what you are writing- best solution is obviously to mix 'n' match when needed.

Please take this response as a friendly reply, and if you respond be courteous to another persons opinion, especially if it doesn't quite chime with yours.

Mike.

Posted on Mon, Jun 20 2016 11:26
by jasensmith
Joined on Tue, Jan 15 2008, Arizona, Posts 1582

Oh man! I'm getting flashbacks of 2007 and 2008 when furious wars were waged on this forum between the "for the 2nds" verses those "against the 2nds."  I hope we're not digging up hatchets that were burried between forum members a long time ago on that debate.

It kind of reminded me of those Miller Lite Beer comercials from the 80's where the two camps were standing against each other shouting, "Tastes great"  "No, Less Filling" Tastes great!, Less filling! TASTES GREAT!!! LESS FILLING!!!, (it's funny how beer keeps finding its way back into this discussion)

Anyway, the transposition trick button goes beyond a 2nd violin section.  That is just one possibility but how about a string quintet where you usually have a 2nd solo violin.   The same goes for a solo woodwinds or brass.  What if you want a 2nd Violas section in your orchestra?  Yes, they could just record a whole new set of samples with different players and different instruments but what about those who can't afford to buy the 2nd set.

The transposition trick button would just be another tool in addition to time stretching, start offset, Humanize, APP sequencer etc. to get more out of the samples you already have whether you have everything VSL has ever produced or just the SE.  It's a God send that VSL offers these tools at nominal prices.  What other companies out there are doing that?


"If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then quit. There's no point in being a damn fool about it."
- W.C. Fields
Posted on Mon, Jun 20 2016 12:02
by mh-7635
Joined on Wed, Aug 04 2004, Posts 192

Didn't know there was a previous war on this, will look back on it.

Jasensmith....yes you're right, a handy button to have especially on a budget,  but who in their right mind would want a 2nd vla section! (before you all chime in , it's just a muso joke!  you know like the one about the definition of perfect pitch - throwing a viola into a toilet without it touching the sides...)

I still stand by my opinion on a 2nds section however, and do find it strange that a flagship like VSL has none, but lets keep it civil. 

Mike.

Posted on Wed, Jun 22 2016 02:50
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5639

The only point I was making was that transposing 1st to seconds, whatever the instrument - allows ALL the samples to be duplicated on another instrument, instead of forcing the sample maker company to do every sample twice.  Which inevitably results in FEWER SAMPLES.  

btw I don't care  about the various "biting responses"  from denizens of the internet.  I was just making a point about a technique that can add a huge amount of utility and power to the already existing sample collection. 

Posted on Wed, Jun 22 2016 18:14
by Pyre
Joined on Thu, Jun 28 2012, Posts 149

Well, we know that Dimension Strings involved around a million samples. About a quarter of which were presumably violins. So just the second violin section for DS alone would be another 250,000 samples. One could perhaps cut down on some of the articulations as it's only the second bank, but only so far before losing the versatility and realism that we flock to VSL for in the first place. I sometimes write second violin parts just as technical as the first, and cutting out too many articulations would hamper that. Add to that the additional samples for the Appassionata, Orchestral, Chamber and Solo libraries, and the sample count climbs higher still. And to integrate fully with the other samples, the recording and editing process would have to be exactly aligned with the original ones, which in some cases are ten years old, so may prove tricky to duplicate. The point is that recording the samples for a second violin section would be very time consuming and far from cheap. Given that we've found workarounds for the lack of second violins for the whole time we've been using VSL to date, I wonder how many users would then pay out for the real thing. A new set of second violin samples would come at the expense of time VSL could spend doing other things, and money you could spend on other things.

A transposition trick button, on the other hand (not that the two have to be mutually exclusive), would presumably be easier to implement. I have no coding knowledge whatsoever, but given that half the functionality is already there, I would hesitate to suggest that it might even be the sort of tool included free in a new version of VIP. It would not be anything like as complicated to program - I'm guessing - as the APP sequencer, after all. It would offer much greater versatility - string quintets were mentioned as needing two solo violins, but I thought standard quartets did too? I routinely use two banks of cellos as well as two violins, so the ability to equally double the cellos would be much more appreciated to me at least than just a second bank of violins. It could also double thing like piccolos to help balance the one piccolo against the three-flute ensemble.

I usually find I get a better sound by having the first and second violin sections using different articulations, but there are some situations (like pizzicato) where that isn't much of an option. The transposition trick is very useful in those instances, and a button would make that easier. But I can certainly live without it too :-).

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Posted on Thu, Jun 23 2016 00:10
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5639

That explains the idea far better than I did. 

Recently I have been doing a lot of experimentation with pushing humanize settings in Dimension strings, along with layering Solo, as far as I can get them to go.  The complexity of sound now available is off the charts! 

Also, it is funny how actual string players and conductors DO NOT WANT the 2nd section to sound different.  They want them totally equivalent to the firsts.   Only people using samples want 2nd players to sound different.   But that already exists - these are just some of the section possibilites now:

1st Violins Appassionata- 2nd Violins Orchestral

1st Violins Orchestral - 2nd Violins Chamber

1st Violins Chamber - 2nd Violin - Solo (common in a theater orchestra)

1st Violins 4 D Vns - 2nd Violins 4 D Vns

All of those involve no transposition.

Add just one transposition, along with layering and humanize settings, and the possibilites for creating different sounding 2nd sections with no compromise whatsoever are so complex it would be way too hard for me to be willing to list. 

O.K., I won't bug anyone with more harping on this.  2nd harp or otherwise. 

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