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  • richness of VSL

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    At this point I have worked with many different libraries, but VSL remains the core of my collection, and I never do a job without it.

    I just wanted to say thanks for the richness of these libraries. Not only for the thorough sampling of the many articulations, but also for the additional things you can do with the samples in VIP and VEP. It takes quite a while to learn it all, but that is GOOD: there is much more to VSL than just the presents which come "out of the box".

    So again, THANK YOU!  :-)

    Alan Belkin

    http://alanbelkinmusic.com/site/en/
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    That was a very nice compliment. I think that VSL libraries have very high potential, as demonstrated by the numerousl excellent demo tracks. So I have purchased many VSL products, but still struggling to learn to use them effectively.

    Meanwhile, products like Berlin Woodwinds or the new CSS seem to get tons more attention on forums and apparently, more customers. I am not sure what to make of it all. But I hope I have done the right thing in buying VSL products and trying to learn to use them.
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    Well, I for one could not do my work without VSL. I do sometimes use other libraries for specific things, but I have never regretted buying the VSL libraries. And I have also never done a project without using at least some VSL. And several have been relaised very well with ONLY VSL. 😊

    @Paul McGraw said:

    That was a very nice compliment. I think that VSL libraries have very high potential, as demonstrated by the numerousl excellent demo tracks. So I have purchased many VSL products, but still struggling to learn to use them effectively.

    Meanwhile, products like Berlin Woodwinds or the new CSS seem to get tons more attention on forums and apparently, more customers. I am not sure what to make of it all. But I hope I have done the right thing in buying VSL products and trying to learn to use them.
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    @Paul McGraw said:

    Meanwhile, products like Berlin Woodwinds or the new CSS seem to get tons more attention on forums and apparently, more customers. I am not sure what to make of it all. But I hope I have done the right thing in buying VSL products and trying to learn to use them.

     

    This game isn't just about the quality of the samples it is also what you use to play them.  IMHO I think VSL has the most intuitive and dynamic player (VIP Pro) on the market today.  This player allows the user to fill in a lot of blanks that are not covered by the recorded samples themselves in order to achieve more variety and realism.

    If I'm not mistaken, Berlin Woodwinds uses the Kontakt player to run the samples and I'm not a big fan of Kontakt's player.  It's better than Play but not by much and is far inferior to VIP Pro. 

    As for the samples, I listened to a few demos and they sounded pretty decent but I would like to hear them bone dry as the demos I heard were richly lathered in reverb.
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    I don't want to get into detailed comparison with other libraries here, but I have used Berlin, Spitfire, Cinesamples and others and I have not found much in the way of manipulating the samples that they do permit which is not also possible in VSL ... usually better! 

    @Paul McGraw said:

    Meanwhile, products like Berlin Woodwinds or the new CSS seem to get tons more attention on forums and apparently, more customers. I am not sure what to make of it all. But I hope I have done the right thing in buying VSL products and trying to learn to use them.

     

    This game isn't just about the quality of the samples it is also what you use to play them.  IMHO I think VSL has the most intuitive and dynamic player (VIP Pro) on the market today.  This player allows the user to fill in a lot of blanks that are not covered by the recorded samples themselves in order to achieve more variety and realism.

    If I'm not mistaken, Berlin Woodwinds uses the Kontakt player to run the samples and I'm not a big fan of Kontakt's player.  It's better than Play but not by much and is far inferior to VIP Pro. 

    As for the samples, I listened to a few demos and they sounded pretty decent but I would like to hear them bone dry as the demos I heard were richly lathered in reverb.
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    @Paul McGraw said:

    Meanwhile, products like Berlin Woodwinds or the new CSS seem to get tons more attention on forums and apparently, more customers. I am not sure what to make of it all. But I hope I have done the right thing in buying VSL products and trying to learn to use them.

    Various forums are often populated by sample-library junkies (like the substantial number of people on Gearslutz who use five or more different DAWs regularly), so the popularity of libraries in the real world is hard to gauge by their Internet presence.

     

    I would imagine that VSL has a hard-core user base who simply prefer the way their libraries work. For example, in Solo Strings I love having over a hundred articulations available at once, and to be able to control them using an iPad/tablet. I don't think VSL has any real competition when it comes to flexibility.

    That's not to say I don't find some other libraries very impressive; it's just that VSL has a unique philosophy that suits me. I don't really bother with others unless there is no VSL option e.g. a choir that can sing text, or non-European instruments.
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    I really agree with Alan and having used Kontakt and various other libraries only end up using them for specialty sounds VSL has not yet sampled.  

    T?he main reason for liking VSL over others is the way it uses a musical way of organizing everything, from the basic analysis of what articulations are needed to fully represent an instrument,  to MIR with its musician-based concert stage with simple little player icons being manipulated.  Also how you can build up a simple or complex instrument with Vienna Instruments - using only one articulation, or many - and you can see instantly everything there.  It really corresponds to how a conductor, composer or orchestrator thinks.  It is very easy to see and switch between all the sounds.  I have not found this to be the case with other interfaces I have tried.  Probably most of all the richness comes from the basic purity of sound captured in all of the samples - no tricks or frills, just pure orchestral instrument sound.    
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    I'll amplify what William said about the level of organization.  When I was casting around for a comprehensive set of libraries with which to develop my computer aided composition and performance system the VSL libraries stood out head and shoulders above anything else on the market.  Not only for the richness and variety of the articulations provided and the virtually complete instrument set but, for the purpose of building any kind of automated system around their use, the consistency of the way the articulations are named and ordered saved me a huge amount of work up front that would have to be done with any other comprehensive library.  

    Other libraries tend to have many inconsistencies in naming and more inconsistencies with respect to the articulations provided between different instruments in a section such as contrabassi, celli, violas, and violins that one would expect to all have the same set of articulation options.  VSL not only does that, but provides virtually the same consistency across libraries such as the various string groups.  You get the same consistency across the winds and the brass. That consistency in VSL makes it possible to swap instruments into a mockup and get surprisingly close to the original design but with an alternate orchestration.

    On the other hand, there are times when you want a particular sound or performance style and it's simply not available with a given library.  Then you go with the resource that best suits your purpose, even if it's not as well constructed as this one.
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    "That consistency in VSL makes it possible to swap instruments into a mockup and get surprisingly close to the original design but with an alternate orchestration." - kenneth.newby

    That is a fantastic quality of VSL I love.   It is amazing to be able to take a MIDI performance for one group of instruments and just plug in different articulations and the piece plays with a completely new orchestration.  I have done this not only with strings - like switching from the huge Appassionata ensemble to Solo - but even across instrument groups like re-orchestrating a string piece for woodwinds instead.  Totally different performers, but the consistent naming and sampling approach allows extreme experimentation with orchestration often with very little tweaking.  
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    Yes, and here's a simple example...

    The string quartet version of the attached excerpt was the original with all of the lively quality to that I enjoy so much about the string quartet as a medium.

    The second file is the same excerpt but with a small orchestra swapped in to play the four parts.  No changes to articulations made. Chamber strings with solo overlays, flute, oboe, clarinet, bassoon, and a brass player (I don't have the template with me as I write this to be sure which instrument it is, and I'm listening on my laptop speakers), I think the Vienna horn.  The only change I made was to slow the tempo a bit to allow a bit more breathing room for the larger ensemble in a larger acoustic space (the string quartet is, I believe in the Shubertsaal, the mixed orchestra in the Grosser Saal).

    I would want to change things around somewhat to further refine the version using the larger and more varied forces, but it's remarkable how much of the character of the original translates from that of a small chamber ensemble to a mid-sized orchestra of strings, winds and brass with virtually no significant changes.  A very good starting point from which to keep working.  Which amplifies the point in my previous post.  A well organized set of libraries—well organized within each instrument as well as across instruments—is a huge time-saver and makes working out such alternates a real pleasure to do.  

    I think of this in the same way one thinks of a finely crafted musical instrument.  There is a significant amount of cultural information embedded in these libraries.  They are performing objects (virtual objects in this case) of the highest order in terms of consistent quality and consistency with the library as a whole.  That's not to say there aren't articulations that would be lovely to have to augment what's already there.  But when they come, as I hope they will, I think we can count on them being integrated with the whole in the same fine design and attention to detail that distinguishes the current offerings.
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    "I think of this in the same way one things of a finely crafted musical instrument.  There is a significant amount of cultural information embedded in these libraries.  They are performing objects (virtual objects in this case) of the highest order in terms of consistent quality and consistency with the library as a whole."  - kenneth.newby

    Wow, this is a brilliant statement!   I feel this way also, that VSL is an actual musical instrument in its own right, not just a bunch of recordings like others.  What you say clarifies for me some thoughts I've had - that the people creating VSL went deeply into, thought deeply about, exactly what it is, that each instrument does in its most basic and characteristic expressions. They then racked their brains how to capture that.  Without any meaningless junk or frills. That is why it has this richness and lasting value.  
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    @Paul McGraw said:

    That was a very nice compliment. I think that VSL libraries have very high potential, as demonstrated by the numerousl excellent demo tracks. So I have purchased many VSL products, but still struggling to learn to use them effectively.

    Meanwhile, products like Berlin Woodwinds or the new CSS seem to get tons more attention on forums and apparently, more customers. I am not sure what to make of it all. But I hope I have done the right thing in buying VSL products and trying to learn to use them.

     

    Nice to see you on the VSL forum Alan and glad you're getting along great with the VSL products. 

    I enjoyed the class you gave on Beethoven's 9 symphonies at University of Montreal. Going back a few years now....
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    Nice to see you too, Guy. :-)
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    Speaking of this richness, I noticed Danny Elfman stated his core library was VSL.  I consider him the best film composer of this time,  so that is interesting to hear.  Why not the other flashy libraries?  I think the reason is very simple - because VSL is the only one that has succeeded in creating a software/sampling environment that makes the orchestra - the actual instruments and every articulation they play  - the main focus.  When you cannot easily switch and control articulations, you start thinking  "Oh never mind, I'll just use this sound..." and then compromise.  I find I don't have to do that ever with VSL.  However I do it all the time with other libraries.  Unless they are single articulation libraries that VSL has not yet sampled.  For example a Toy Piano that I really like.  Just one patch to load, and that is all.  That works fine.  However, with anything more complex - like all the instruments of the orchestra - it is not enough.  

    Another thing about the "richness" - it is interesting how some of the lesser used instruments - such as Bass Flute and Wagner Tubas to name just  a couple - are among the most deeply sampled and rich sounding.  I am still in awe of the Bass Flute.  It is the most incredibly expressive instrument that adds instant velvety texture to an orchestration that you would be so hard pressed to find with live players.  Just try to get a really good Bass Flute player live!  That performer who recorded the samples was simply wonderful.  And that is just one of the many "extra" instruments that are mere "additions" to the orchestra, yet done with meticulous detail.  That thoroughness is definitely something that adds immensely to this richness.      

    I have to add that the new Dimension Strings are simply hypnotic in their beauty.  I started auditioning the sounds of the sordino violas and cellos but lost track of where I was, what time it was, what I was supposed to be doing,  the sound is so mesmerizing.  The possibilities are endless.   
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    I am just learning so much of this is Greek to me. I settled on Vienna for a few reasons to start my library.

    First, it doesnt use Kontakt.

    If that isnt enough...

    Second, the philosophy of recording everything as dry as possible and allowing the composer / engineer to layer their choice of effects seems more flexible to me. I was really impressed with Cinesamples and East West until I realized I didnt want all of my music to sound like a movie soundtrack.

    Third, the sheer number of articulations is daunting. DAUNTING! I have no clue what Im doing. I just plug in an instrument with an articulation and say, hey! I can do something with that.

    Related to the first reason, Vienna Instruments is amazeballs and I only have the basic version, one day soon I hope to purchase the Pro version (I want to fill out my library with a bit more from the special edition libraries first). The humanization options and preset runs look very interesting to me and is what sets my mind on a very interesting journey. The concept that I can compose a piece and hit play and no two performances will ever be exactly the same is mind blowing.

    I know for the experienced folks here who know how Vienna stuff works, this is all non-news, but to me, the last time I looked at sound fonts was 15 years ago and at that time, I wasnt impressed. Now in 2016, here we are a mere 5 years away from being able to replace an orchestra with sound fonts. These are REALLY close to the original and mixed correctly, Id be willing to guess most wouldnt be able to tell the difference, in 5 more years, its going to be damn near indistinguishable.

    Im struggling to figure out a workflow (I am used to working with a Motif XF8 and doing everything in the keyboard and exporting into a simple program like Audacity as a mockup and importing the midi into sibelius to get sheet music, and yes, I also handwrite music...you know...a pen and paper...very retro). The entire DAW process is very complicated and Im struggling to figure out how to get my Motif to work with my mediocre PC like a simple tracker does. And God help me if I need to add anything other than reverb...

    Vienna is the only collection of soundfonts I 'own'. My frustration lies in that for someone who does this as a hobby, its very time consuming to get the technology to get out of the way of the creative process and it is still very expensive for someone who doesnt make a living writing music. I do it because its a passion, I havent yet made a dime from my music writing.
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    @littlewierdo said:

    I am just learning so much of this is Greek to me. I settled on Vienna for a few reasons to start my library.

    First, it doesnt use Kontakt.

    If that isnt enough...

    Second, the philosophy of recording everything as dry as possible and allowing the composer / engineer to layer their choice of effects seems more flexible to me. I was really impressed with Cinesamples and East West until I realized I didnt want all of my music to sound like a movie soundtrack.

    Third, the sheer number of articulations is daunting. DAUNTING! I have no clue what Im doing. I just plug in an instrument with an articulation and say, hey! I can do something with that.

    Related to the first reason, Vienna Instruments is amazeballs and I only have the basic version, one day soon I hope to purchase the Pro version (I want to fill out my library with a bit more from the special edition libraries first). The humanization options and preset runs look very interesting to me and is what sets my mind on a very interesting journey. The concept that I can compose a piece and hit play and no two performances will ever be exactly the same is mind blowing.

    I know for the experienced folks here who know how Vienna stuff works, this is all non-news, but to me, the last time I looked at sound fonts was 15 years ago and at that time, I wasnt impressed. Now in 2016, here we are a mere 5 years away from being able to replace an orchestra with sound fonts. These are REALLY close to the original and mixed correctly, Id be willing to guess most wouldnt be able to tell the difference, in 5 more years, its going to be damn near indistinguishable.

    Im struggling to figure out a workflow (I am used to working with a Motif XF8 and doing everything in the keyboard and exporting into a simple program like Audacity as a mockup and importing the midi into sibelius to get sheet music, and yes, I also handwrite music...you know...a pen and paper...very retro). The entire DAW process is very complicated and Im struggling to figure out how to get my Motif to work with my mediocre PC like a simple tracker does. And God help me if I need to add anything other than reverb...

    Vienna is the only collection of soundfonts I 'own'. My frustration lies in that for someone who does this as a hobby, its very time consuming to get the technology to get out of the way of the creative process and it is still very expensive for someone who doesnt make a living writing music. I do it because its a passion, I havent yet made a dime from my music writing.

    I also am a hobbyist. I am 63 and an instrumental musician all my life, but now I want to focus on composing. I tried some other sample libraries, but my primary interest is classical music, so I have been buying VSL instruments. So far, I have had the most success in using VSL in Cubase with Expression maps. I also purchased MIRx, which has presets for spatialization and EQ for every instrument, and I have enjoyed using MIRx. I don't read much on this forum about MIRx and Cubase Expression maps, so I just thought I would mention those tools.
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    I am very much interested in MirX, just dont have the computing power to run it. My library is very small as money is tight (I have special edition 1 (without the plus) and half of special edition 2 (strings and woodwinds)). My first goal is to complete the special editions this year, at least the core 1-4 packages because I think that will give me something to start with that is decent, then the two plus special editions, then Instruiments Pro, then Ensemble, then begin purchasing full libraries for brass and woodwinds as those are affordable. The strings are far too expensive for me and not really offered in low enough prices to make them something I can even consider right now (most of the string packages have a starting price of $300 USD and go up from there to as much as nearly $800 for just the standard library, no option to purchase a smaller bundle and work your way up to a full library. Contrast that to the brass and woodwinds where many are sold as single instruments and can be purchased for as little as $100-$200 for a full library. Much easier to purchase a little here and a little there).

    MirX will be something I will look at next year when I have money to upgrade my PC and can effectively write wtihout worrying about PC performance, but definately have my eye on it. It is one of the many things that drew me to Vienna in the first place, what a powerful reverb engine and it looks incredibly easy to use. Heck, I might even do Mir Pro, why not? Its only money...
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    The thing I like about MIRx is that it has presets that sound excellent to my ears. And while I can appreciate excellent spatialization and authentic sounding reverb, I am not really interested in becoming a sound engineer. There is plenty I need to learn about composing and using the VSL instruments effectively to keep me busy for years to come.
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    @Another User said:

    The entire DAW process is very complicated and Im struggling to figure out how to get my Motif to work with my mediocre PC like a simple tracker does. And God help me if I need to add anything other than reverb...

    Vienna is the only collection of soundfonts I 'own'. My frustration lies in that for someone who does this as a hobby, its very time consuming to get the technology to get out of the way of the creative process and it is still very expensive for someone who doesnt make a living writing music. I do it because its a passion, I havent yet made a dime from my music writing.

    As somebody who was classically trained on Piano it was very time consuming to get major and minor scales, circle of fifths, fingering and practice out of the way of the creative process😛

    Think of this "adventure" as if you're learning how to play an instrument.

    As for the "entire DAW process," try bouncing everything naked, meaning no reverb, no effects.  It should be less taxing on your system to cloth the bounced audio rather than the MIDI tracks in real time.  Or bounce in sections (submixes) like strings, woodwinds, brass, etc. then add your effects.  

    Good luck on your journey. 
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    Hi, I totally agree with most comments here about the richness of VSL, and I would like to share my impression with VSL here too.

    I started to know VSL when I was looking for a way to upgrade my Sibelius and to make it sound better. My first purchase, Special Edition 1, did the job well and helped my composition workflow even though I didn't feel much impressed with the sound quality. (I thought it was too dry, but I didn't know the reason at the moment.) I expanded it to SE1+ to get more articulations and tried the demo MIRx before finding out that it helped improve the sound a lot. I would say that Special Editions and MIRx are a perfect combination for notation software (plus VI Pro if you need access to polyphonic legato feature).

    However, when it comes to DAW sequencing, I found it difficult to achieve the realism, especially for solo instrument phrases, with only SE and MIRx. The articulations were just not enough for me to make a phrase sound musically coherent. At times, I was caught in a dilemma whether I should upgrade my VSL, or just go for other libraries that sound good out-of-the-box.

    I read lots of forums and did some research on VSL product lines. I realised that the philosophy behind VSL is different from other. They recorded the samples dry, therefore the most important parts to achieve great sounding are their software: VI Pro, MIR Pro, and Vienna Suite. The result of VSL approach is greater flexibility and more precise control over the sound of the instruments, but in an expense of a higher learning curve and being more complicated to deal with. I ended up getting the Solo Strings I and was amazed at its huge amount of articulations and result I could get with it.

    Since then, I have kept visiting the VSL website every month to see which instrument was on discount and started to build up my VSL palette patiently. To anyone who is new to VSL, I would recommend starting with the combination of SE1, VI Pro and MIRx. Then, considering upgrading your frequently used solo instruments to the full library for more details and better realism. Software-wise, the best upgrading path, in my opinion, is MIRx>MIR PRO (24) with one RoomPack, before getting the Vienna Suite. (I skipped VEP because it has nothing to do with the sound but it becomes very handy when you have a huge template and have to set up a master-slave network.)

    Although VSL samples and software have been the main part of my templates, I still love experimenting with other company's libraries and use them, either on its own or layering them with VSL, every now and then. Sometimes they just sound right in certain situations. I believe that there is no best sample library in the market, but the consistency, flexibility and the wide range of articulations that VSL offer just allows its users to achieve a very close result to recording real orchestral musicians.

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