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Auto-vibrato
Last post Wed, Jan 25 2017 by MMKA, 15 replies.
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Posted on Mon, Jan 23 2017 09:52
by Oceanview
Joined on Sat, Jan 12 2008, Oxford, England, Posts 163

I would like to ask if VSL might consider developing an 'auto-vibrato' programme rather like the humanize function, which could apply a large number of types of vibrato to any cell which was non-vibrato.

Humanize offers delay and pitch variation. So is it possible to have a similar adjustment that would create varying vibratos?

I'm thinking primarily about strings. It seems to me that in the quest for realism one of the challenges is that the ear notices the vibrato applied to many of the string sounds when they are common (sus, legato) and not short duration, where they are necessarily repeatedly triggered during melodies.

By using the non-vib cells as a base, this would avoid the need to record new samples. A duplicate of the non-vib cell could be loaded into one of the blank cells in the matrix to be affected by the new software, so that the non-vib sounds remains available as it is.

Perhaps this could be an extension of what Humanize does, rather than a new piece of software in VIPro?

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

Oceanview
Posted on Mon, Jan 23 2017 10:44
by jasensmith
Joined on Tue, Jan 15 2008, Arizona, Posts 1582

Originally Posted by: Oceanview Go to Quoted Post

So is it possible to have a similar adjustment that would create varying vibratos?

But then wouldn't it be an artificial vibrato?  Kind of like an LFO controlled vibrato?

If memory serves me right, this was the source of some pretty heated debates on the forum in the past and I don't want to speak for VSL but I think their position was that it didn't sound convincing enough.  That was more or less the consensus from users as well.


"If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then quit. There's no point in being a damn fool about it."
- W.C. Fields
Posted on Mon, Jan 23 2017 12:05
by Oceanview
Joined on Sat, Jan 12 2008, Oxford, England, Posts 163

Thanks for the reply.

I can understand the problem with an unnatural effect. Perhaps software has improved enough (?) to make it realistic now. I should add that I was thinking of this function in connection with a performance of a score in Sibelius.

I missed the 'heated debates' you mentioned. If anyone has a link back to them I'd be interested to read the debate.

Oceanview
Posted on Tue, Jan 24 2017 07:21
by jasensmith
Joined on Tue, Jan 15 2008, Arizona, Posts 1582

Originally Posted by: Oceanview Go to Quoted Post

I missed the 'heated debates' you mentioned. If anyone has a link back to them I'd be interested to read the debate.

 

I just did a forum search for "vibrato lfo control" and came up with this:

http://vsl.co.at/community/posts/t20075-Control-an-instrument-s-Vibrato-amount-with-Vienna-Instruments-interface#post139413

The first thread that came up may not exactly be a "heated" debate but their were some strong opinions either for and against.

I didn't have time to read through the other threads but they're from 2005 and all of the threads are pre VI-Pro so maybe you have a point about the software evolution.


"If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then quit. There's no point in being a damn fool about it."
- W.C. Fields
Posted on Tue, Jan 24 2017 07:25
by jasensmith
Joined on Tue, Jan 15 2008, Arizona, Posts 1582

I forgot to mention that the threads I did read through were concerning string vibrato not any of the other instruments.


"If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then quit. There's no point in being a damn fool about it."
- W.C. Fields
Posted on Tue, Jan 24 2017 12:49
by saxmand
Joined on Wed, May 06 2009, Posts 62

Would probably be a cool feature. I guess the top of the line in this software area is Embertones solo strings. They based their library on this concept, recording everything without vibrato. They can be really expressive, no doubt, but there's sometimes the LFO based vibrato still annoys me, and feels a bit fake. Also controlling and programing it can take a little focus away from the performance for me, though they did a really good job, also with the TouchOSC app.

Now for most project I've actually ended setting up dimension strings with a crossfade between the non-vibrato and vibrato legato patches. I really think this creates an intimate sound. And it's nice being able to crossfade to a real played vibrato. And beside that still have all sorts of articulations available. I found this concept working best with DS which for what I know is the only full string library that has actual sampled non-vibrato legato transitions. Most libraries use their vibrato/regular legato transitions and then crossfade immediately to their recorded non-vibrato sustained sample. But this thing I hear very clearly and therefor it doesn't work for me. 

Unfortunately VSL didn't sample (edit: performance legato) non-vibrato for the other string libraries, so the concept can't be applied in the same way. Let me know if you want to know more about how I've set up DS. 

Best

Posted on Tue, Jan 24 2017 14:02
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7883

Originally Posted by: saxmand Go to Quoted Post

[...] Unfortunately VSL didn't sample non-vibrato for the other string libraries, so the concept can't be applied in the same way. [...]

That must be some kind of misunderstanding: WIth the only exception of Appassionata Strings (which are meant to be played "molto espressivo" anyway), all "sizes" of VSL strings (i.e. Solo, Chamber, Orchestra) offer non-vibrato samples, too.

-> https://www.vsl.co.at/en/Strings/Strings_Complete#!Sample_Content

Kind regards,

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Tue, Jan 24 2017 14:07
by saxmand
Joined on Wed, May 06 2009, Posts 62

ah dang, sorry that wasn't clear. I ment in the context of performance legato, so that there's no "performance legato non-vibrato". I'll just add that to remove that confusion.

Should say that there are with the latest two solo instruments Solo Violin 2 and Solo Cello 2.

Posted on Tue, Jan 24 2017 15:43
by jasensmith
Joined on Tue, Jan 15 2008, Arizona, Posts 1582
Of course if you have VI PRO you can experiment with the time stretch feature and that would work for any instrument.

To be honest I never tried it myself because I've always been satisfied with the vibrato "baked into" the sample.

"If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then quit. There's no point in being a damn fool about it."
- W.C. Fields
Posted on Wed, Jan 25 2017 00:34
by ddunn
Joined on Fri, Aug 03 2007, Posts 82

I would love to get my hands on the Humanize vibrato settings that Guy Bacos used in his oboe and clarinet demos for VSL.  Simply gorgeous.  I wish VSL would look into providing us with a pallete of humanize vibrato files in the next VIPro release.  

Posted on Wed, Jan 25 2017 12:28
by herb
Joined on Mon, Aug 05 2002, Posts 4622

Originally Posted by: ddunn Go to Quoted Post

I would love to get my hands on the Humanize vibrato settings that Guy Bacos used in his oboe and clarinet demos for VSL.  Simply gorgeous.  I wish VSL would look into providing us with a pallete of humanize vibrato files in the next VIPro release.  

 

Hi ddunn,

Humanize vibrato presets are available inside VI-Pro since 4 or 5 years.
You can find them in the Humanize Presetfolder "10 FX".
There are labeled "LFO effect", presets for fast, medium and progressive vibtratos are available.

best
Herb

Posted on Wed, Jan 25 2017 18:36
by ddunn
Joined on Fri, Aug 03 2007, Posts 82

Thanks for the reply, Herb.  Yes, I should have mentioned that I have looked at and tried those.  Guy's use of them had a much wider vibrato than the ones in the FX folder.  It's something that I plan on getting into at some point.  I guess Guy created those himself.  It seems to be a subject of contension on the forums, but I have no problem with it.  

Posted on Wed, Jan 25 2017 18:44
by herb
Joined on Mon, Aug 05 2002, Posts 4622

If you mean with wide vibrato the pitch amount of the amplitude, you can set this up with the "Tun" controller.
Value 127 offers the maximun amount, which is IMO way over the top. Settings between 30 to 70 should work well. (of course the "Hmz" controler should be also set to 127, otherwise you scale the amplitude with this slider.

best
Herb

Posted on Wed, Jan 25 2017 18:55
by ddunn
Joined on Fri, Aug 03 2007, Posts 82

Thanks.  Could be that I overlooked that!  I'll try at first opportunity. Thank you.

Darryl

Posted on Wed, Jan 25 2017 19:58
by MMKA
Joined on Tue, May 22 2012, Posts 467

Thank you, Herb, for your post!
All the messages I read on the internet (where else) were: VSL don't use LFO vibrato, and in the manual of VIPro I didn't find it either (at least I searched on the words lfo, vibrato, fx and humanize and I didn't find it). And surprise, surprise, there it is, just under my fingertips. As I wrote earlier in a post, not for every note of course, but if I need some extra vibrato in a specific situation.

Perhaps useful for others:
I found out also: every kind of fx vibrato in the list has 12 variations. You can choose to use them one behind the other, but for a certain situation, it is also possible to use just the first one and adapt them to your needs. You can save them also of course (see the image).

Ok, and while I was writing, other posts came. Perhaps mine could help someone  

and... VSL even better than I knew already...

MMKA attached the following image(s):
VIProU0020fxU0020vibrato.JPG (182kb) downloaded 24 time(s).

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