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Layering different instruments
Last post Fri, Mar 10 2017 by PauloRego, 10 replies.
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Posted on Fri, Mar 03 2017 22:41
by LuCsa
Joined on Sat, Dec 19 2015, Vienna, Posts 120

Hello!

Often, one reads about layering different libraries, most commonly for the strings. Imagine I want to layer the Orchestral with the Solo Strings, just to get a more detailed sound. Do you add the corresponding patches to the matrices of the Orchestral Strings, so that they are automatically used as well (and adjust volume in the matrix mixer) or have you dedicated Solo Strings Tracks which are layered "audio-wise" so to say (so when exporting MIDI, they would appear as a distinct voice in the score?)

kind regards,
Lukas

i7-6700K (4 @ 4.0GHz w/ HT) - 16GB RAM
Windows 10 Home 64bit - Reaper - Finale 2012 - Dorico
---
VI Pro 2 - VEP7 - MIRx Sage
SE1 bundle - SE2 bundle - SE1 synch.
CSS - CSSSS
Posted on Sat, Mar 04 2017 15:40
by jasensmith
Joined on Tue, Jan 15 2008, Arizona, Posts 1494
I rarely layer anything but strings, sometimes brass, but rarely.

Not to say that my method is better than everyone else's but each string layer (orchestral, chamber, solo, etc.) is set up separately within their own VEP instance. I treat each instance independent of the others. I never just carbon copy the articulations throughout all the layers. I try to add some variety by keeping the articulations similar. Yes, it's a lot of work especially if you're doing some big string ensemble but the payoff in sound is well worth it.

The trick is setting the volume of each layer. You want that nice lush string sound but enough detail so that it doesn't sound artificial or synthy.

Anyway, that's how I do it.

"If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then quit. There's no point in being a damn fool about it."
- W.C. Fields
Posted on Sun, Mar 05 2017 10:11
by LuCsa
Joined on Sat, Dec 19 2015, Vienna, Posts 120

jasensmith wrote:
Not to say that my method is better than everyone else's but each string layer (orchestral, chamber, solo, etc.) is set up separately within their own VEP instance. I treat each instance independent of the others. I never just carbon copy the articulations throughout all the layers. I try to add some variety by keeping the articulations similar. Yes, it's a lot of work especially if you're doing some big string ensemble but the payoff in sound is well worth it.

This sounds reasonable and like a good way to go. Thank you for your input!
I will try to layer one legato or sustain patch of the Orchestral Strings with a slot overlay of a corresponding solo instrument, in order to "add some vibrato" at certain places - this is the only thing I'm really missing in the Special Editions: A way to control vibrato to some extent, which would be really essential in some places. Maybe this is somewhat of a workaround.

@bold text: How many instances of VEP do you have active at same time, roughly? I, at the moment, have 3 (one for winds, one for strings and harp and one for keys, perc and misc. I'm thinking about creating smaller "modules", though...

Thanks for your time. :) Other thoughts are also appreciated of course.

Kind regards,
Lukas

i7-6700K (4 @ 4.0GHz w/ HT) - 16GB RAM
Windows 10 Home 64bit - Reaper - Finale 2012 - Dorico
---
VI Pro 2 - VEP7 - MIRx Sage
SE1 bundle - SE2 bundle - SE1 synch.
CSS - CSSSS
Posted on Mon, Mar 06 2017 01:49
by jasensmith
Joined on Tue, Jan 15 2008, Arizona, Posts 1494

Originally Posted by: LuCsa Go to Quoted Post

@bold text: How many instances of VEP do you have active at same time, roughly? I, at the moment, have 3 (one for winds, one for strings and harp and one for keys, perc and misc. I'm thinking about creating smaller "modules", though...

 

I only have one going at a time because I prefer to treat each instrument individually.  Again, it is time consuming.

I tell the clients, "If you want it in a hurry, you'll get it in a hurry."  Meaning: Sure you'll get the product quickly but it's going to be an inferior product.  But if that's what you want...


"If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then quit. There's no point in being a damn fool about it."
- W.C. Fields
Posted on Mon, Mar 06 2017 18:03
by LuCsa
Joined on Sat, Dec 19 2015, Vienna, Posts 120

jasensmith wrote:
I only have one going at a time because I prefer to treat each instrument individually.  Again, it is time consuming.

You are saying that you only have one instance of VEP with one instrument loaded at a time, do its whole rendition, export audio and then do the next one?! I think, there is a misunderstanding here...?

i7-6700K (4 @ 4.0GHz w/ HT) - 16GB RAM
Windows 10 Home 64bit - Reaper - Finale 2012 - Dorico
---
VI Pro 2 - VEP7 - MIRx Sage
SE1 bundle - SE2 bundle - SE1 synch.
CSS - CSSSS
Posted on Tue, Mar 07 2017 02:56
by jasensmith
Joined on Tue, Jan 15 2008, Arizona, Posts 1494

For example,

I'll load my Orchestral Strings template which is comprised of five instruments: 1st Violins, 2nd Violins, Violas, Celli, and Bassi.

First I work on the 1st violins (Programming and MIDI) Record it and bounce to audio.

2nd I work on the 2 nd vilons, record, bounce.

Violas, etc.

After all the Orchestral Strings are bounced I shut down the VEP instance then insert the Chamber strings followed by Solo.  Yes, working with one instrument at a time.

Like I said, it's time consuming but that's how I prefer to work.

Note:  I work with a DAW set up not notation software.


"If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then quit. There's no point in being a damn fool about it."
- W.C. Fields
Posted on Thu, Mar 09 2017 08:08
by LuCsa
Joined on Sat, Dec 19 2015, Vienna, Posts 120

Wow, then I really got you right... Sounds interesting (and tedious). Just out of curiosity, why don't you just mute the instruments in your pallet, you're not working on currently - why interrupt your work with setup-things after each instrument?

jasensmith wrote:
I tell the clients, "If you want it in a hurry, you'll get it in a hurry."  Meaning: Sure you'll get the product quickly but it's going to be an inferior product.  But if that's what you want...
I like that - customers should learn that (and be told more often). :D

i7-6700K (4 @ 4.0GHz w/ HT) - 16GB RAM
Windows 10 Home 64bit - Reaper - Finale 2012 - Dorico
---
VI Pro 2 - VEP7 - MIRx Sage
SE1 bundle - SE2 bundle - SE1 synch.
CSS - CSSSS
Posted on Thu, Mar 09 2017 11:04
by jasensmith
Joined on Tue, Jan 15 2008, Arizona, Posts 1494

All of my templates are standardized.  The keyswitches remain the same going from shortest notes to longest, or more precisely from fastest to slowest notes, for each instrument loaded in the template.  When I arrange a piece I already know what articulations are programmed to what keyswitches so there's no need to load my template until I'm ready to record the CC data and bounce to audio.

Once the template (VEP) is loaded, I turn off all of the instruments except the one I'm working with.  When I'm finished, I turn that instrument off and turn the next one on.

Again, my templates have already been prefabricated  The time consuming part is recording the CC data for each parameter, Expression, Humanize, etc.


"If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then quit. There's no point in being a damn fool about it."
- W.C. Fields
Posted on Thu, Mar 09 2017 11:10
by jasensmith
Joined on Tue, Jan 15 2008, Arizona, Posts 1494

Originally Posted by: LuCsa Go to Quoted Post

jasensmith wrote:
I tell the clients, "If you want it in a hurry, you'll get it in a hurry."  Meaning: Sure you'll get the product quickly but it's going to be an inferior product.  But if that's what you want...
I like that - customers should learn that (and be told more often). :D

Just be honest with them.  When they say, "...And I need it yesterday!!!"

Okay, well all I can do is slap together some lame block chords with an arpeggiator but at least you'll get it yesterday.


"If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then quit. There's no point in being a damn fool about it."
- W.C. Fields
Posted on Fri, Mar 10 2017 19:41
by PauloRego
Joined on Sat, May 14 2016, Posts 49

Originally Posted by: jasensmith Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: LuCsa Go to Quoted Post

jasensmith wrote:
I tell the clients, "If you want it in a hurry, you'll get it in a hurry."  Meaning: Sure you'll get the product quickly but it's going to be an inferior product.  But if that's what you want...
I like that - customers should learn that (and be told more often). :D

Just be honest with them.  When they say, "...And I need it yesterday!!!"

Okay, well all I can do is slap together some lame block chords with an arpeggiator but at least you'll get it yesterday.

Made me smile :)

Symphonic Cube Standard, Appassionata Strings I Standard, Fanfare Trumpets Full, Epic Orchestra, Vienna Instruments Pro 2, Vienna Ensemble Pro 6, Vienna Suite, MIRx Teldex Scoring Stage, The Sage Gateshead, Konzerthaus Grosser Saal & Konzerthaus Mozartsaal

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