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Multiprocessor on slave question
Last post Fri, Mar 31 2017 by jesse.nemitz, 7 replies.
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Posted on Mon, Mar 27 2017 15:14
by Dillon DeRosa
Joined on Sat, Feb 11 2012, Posts 19

Hi,

So I know you shouldn't have kontakt multiproccesor on if you have your daw (cubase for me) on... So rigth now I have on my master pc multiprocess ON with cubase,  vepro6 on master 7/8 threads ON, and kontatk inside vepro multiprocess is OFF.

My question is for my slave pc...  so I have vepro6 on slave 8/8 threads and kontakt multiprocessor is OFF however you think it'll be benficial to have it ON? Since it's only runnign on it's own computer not sharing with Cubase since Cubase is on Master. 

I've tested both and I don't at the moment see a difference but wondering if anyone else has further insight of which is better?

Thanks!

Cubase Pro 11 latest
Dorico Pro 3.5 latest
VEPro 7.0.1056 latest
Baby Face Pro Audio Interface
PC Master Windows 10 latest
AMD 5800x Ryzen Cpu
128gbs of ddr4
Posted on Wed, Mar 29 2017 13:34
by jesse.nemitz
Joined on Sun, Jun 12 2011, Posts 27

everything I've tested leads me to leave multiprocessing on on all three softwares.. in almost every possible configuration... I'm using a nearly identical setup to you. Only difference is I have 64gb of DDR4 ram.

my best setup yet is actually letting cubase only see 2 cores (there is a way to set processor affinity), and run THREE instances of VEP using 2 cores each (this is very easy to do.. thanks paul!!!) ... thats 8 total being allocated, BUT ALSO let kontakt use 6-8 too. I have not tested the latest Kontakt 5.6... this was on 5.5... also I'm averaging 8 instrument lanes in EACH VEPro instance..

I've also found there is no penalty for having more racks than 8.. it's more about balancing the load... for instance, if I have THREE keyscape instances... it works MUCH better if you split them up over 3 separate VEPro instances than having one VEPro instance try to negotiate the realtime priority of THREE heavy instruments simultaneously. I cant figure out WHY.. just observing my experiences.

I have two additional slaves that each use 4 VEP instances with 2 cores each vienna rack (8 total). Similar set up on the 8 instrment lanes.. about 64 slave instruments making 88 if I'm counting the main machine.

Also, I use a single instance of Kontakt for each sound.... I've tested both ways and always found that 8 kontakts racks playing the 8 sounds you want is more efficient than having a single kontakt playing the same exact 8 sounds in a multitimbral setup... even so... there are certain instruments in Kontakt (like Abbey Road Pianos) that seem to NEED the multiprocessor no matter how you set it up...

I'd be very happy to learn if anyone has any results or workflows that disagree with my findings... good luck guys.

Posted on Wed, Mar 29 2017 15:11
by Dillon DeRosa
Joined on Sat, Feb 11 2012, Posts 19

Hi Jesse,

Thanks so much for replying this is very interesting and I'm glad we have similar setups. I'm curious to know if your settings will improve mine or make it worse. I'd like to try and copy to the closest I can and report back my findings -- could you go into more detail on yours?

I don't have the affinity set yet but since we have the same processor which comination are you setting? Are you using 0&1 or 1&2 or 6&7?  

For my VEpro on the master sharing with cubase has 3 instances with around 30 on average kontakt channels with average 3 instruments per channel with kontakt multi set to off at the moment -- but I'm not sure how you set each instance to have 2 cores? Unless your just doubling the isntances to the core so since I have 3 I should set the threads to 6? Or am I misinterepting?

Also since the master is sharing cubase, I imagine from what you said is I'll send 2 cores to  Cubase, 6 cores to Vepro and set kontakt multi-proccesing to 6 cores as well since 2 cores are strictly for cubase? 

On my slave pc I have 4 instances of VEpro with around 30 channels on average with 5 on each channel and I have the threads set to 8 with kontakt multiprocessor set to 8 as well.

Lastly, are you using affinity on Vepro on master and slave?

Thanks :D

Cubase Pro 11 latest
Dorico Pro 3.5 latest
VEPro 7.0.1056 latest
Baby Face Pro Audio Interface
PC Master Windows 10 latest
AMD 5800x Ryzen Cpu
128gbs of ddr4
Posted on Thu, Mar 30 2017 02:19
by jesse.nemitz
Joined on Sun, Jun 12 2011, Posts 27

I am on deadline right now.. don't have a ton of time but wanted to give you something...

I follow almost everything in this guide:

http://www.overclock.net/t/1433882/gaming-and-mouse-response-bios-optimization-guide-for-modern-pc-hardware

this is my shortcut target for Cubase.. I launch from the desktop even though I have Cubase pinned on the taskbar... it just doesn't hold the target settings for me if I don't start from the desktop shortcut EVERY time... so when I go to MIX, I let cubase have EVERYTHING it wants... only during the arrangement MIDI phase will I limit cubase to two cores... then let vienna fight over the rest. My next move is to build an absolute MONSTER dual xeon 44 core (88 with HT) because I have a feeling vienna will know EXACTLY how to use the cores... and basically work with the cores more exclusively... but for now:

C:\Windows\System32\cmd.exe /c start "Process Monitor" /affinity 3F "C:\Program Files\Steinberg\Cubase 9\Cubase9.exe"

On Cubase-> Devices -> VST Audio System...

Release Driver when Application in Background: NOT CHECKED

Activate Multi Processing: CHECKED

Activate ASIO-Guard: ABSOLUTELY NOT! even in VSTi plugin setup in cubase, I have specifically disabled asio guard for vienna plugins. There was a history where ASIO guard + the Vienna BUFFER would FREEZE and do weird things. I don't trust it and my workflow truly doesn't benefit from it... if I DID need it, I certainly would just build two main templates, one for arrangement, and one for mixing with heavy plugs... but I wouldn't be crazy enough to try using MIDI, vienna AND ASIO-Guard.. I mean, I'm not suicidal.

Audio Priority: BOOST

Activate Steinberg Audio Power Scheme: NOT CHECKED (But only becasue I have manually unparked all cores using special registry hacks... there are apps that can do this easily... it wasn't easy to optimize, and I am not balsy enough to try this checked option anymore because it literally messes with your CPU and Power settings every time you check it. I'm worried its gonna screw with my nice low latency setup)

Disk Preload: 2

Adjust for Record latency: CHECKED

ALSO----- i have ASIO latency compensation on BOTH Vienna and Cubase OFF until I'm in the mix stage... the idea being.. I don't want either program introducing artificial delay while I'm mocking up and really want to feel no latency with the performances of each instrument... however once programming is past midi... it might be appropriate to enable those settings for the render in place I just haven't tested enough.. And honestly theres so many variables on the sample libraries, instruments etc... on how much delay exists IN the sample itself to make it almost a non issue in almost every case... I just bounce the loops and then deal with any audio sync problems as needed... maybe nudging stuff forward an back as a whole as a final step...

------------------------------

Also its important to note I use an app called: Vista Multimedia Scheduler Configuiration Tool

Network throttling index: Disabled
System Responsiveness reserved CPU: 10%

Task: Pro Audio
Affinity: ALL
Clock Rate 10000
GPU Priority: 8
Priority: 1
Scheduling category: High
I/O Priority: Normal
Background Only: False
Background priority: blank

Make sure to backup entries before you jack with this... and SAVE AND EXIT.

--------------------

Another important setting for this setup, is the Windows System Properties / (tab) Advanced / (section) Performance - Settings... / (tab) Advaced

Processor scheduling: PROGRAMS
Virtual Memory: 0mb (disabled)

-------------------

I use all SSDs: 6 Sandisk 960gb ultra II for normal crap, two samsung evo 850 for operating and daw recording and a Samsung 950 evo for my highest demand kontakt and vsti. I have one older spinning drive for temporary storage which is a SATA internal 3tb drive... this is a staging area to do heavy audio processing, archiving, extraction.. anything that is just wasted write cycles on the SSDs I can do on the staging drive...

NO usb or firewire drives!
NO network shares
NO running processes etc... be smart... fixed IP addresses for all machines... enable net bios over TCP/IP etc...
NO HOMEGROUP CRAP

NO HPET (disabled using "bcdedit /deletevalue useplatformclock" and also disabled in BIOS")
----

I see where you are going with the core issue... the best I can do for now is advise setting Vienna options-(tab)-Instances: "Multiprocessing" setting to 2 threads across your entire setup. don't set it to 8.. and DO NOT TRY TO MESS WITH AFFINITY FOR VIENNA... I've tried it... and it actually creates SERIOUS problems for vienna... so leave it be.

by setting it to 2 threads... you are basically using ONE true core (there are really only FOUR cores... the other four are hyperthread virtual cores... BUT for sure, kontakt and vienna LOVE hyperthreading... there is signifigant performance gain of realtime processor calls between NO HT and YES HT... so leave it on.

Then go ahead and just let kontakt have multiprocessor support in its own settings like I said before.... I also do that with Battery 3 / 4 and reaktor.

-----

overall my RME Raydat is set to 128 buffer... for normal session... 256... in mix stage.. probably getting to 512 and if I bring up Acustica Nebula (for the absolute secret sauce when only the best sounds will do, then I'll take it 1024-2048... with a similar Nebula SERVER setup to the vienna setup...

Remember to just do a system image before you start jacking with settings like this... its so easy to mirror up a drive image (I'm LOVING LOVING LOVING EaseUS Backup software for mission critical imaging and low-profile installs across my machines) Once I've achieved a working setup.. I date and image all machines... because... oh my goodness if one day I wakeup and this thing just doesn't work right... it WILL be faster to flash back to an image than tracking down a million or so potential problems.

WHICH REMINDS ME. WINDOWS UPDATE NEEDS TO DIE DIE DIE DIE... no updates.. or you will have problems.

 GOOD LUCK !!!! Let me know how this goes.

Posted on Thu, Mar 30 2017 02:27
by jesse.nemitz
Joined on Sun, Jun 12 2011, Posts 27

one more thing... I use AnyDesk (2.7.1) as a BRILLIANT solution to be able to access the slaves as if they are just additional local instances of vienna on the taskbar of the main windows daw... I even changed the anydesk logo to vienna's logo (just slightly different color to signal a "remote" window)... so right next to my local instances... is a permanent remote portal into the other machines... which seems as smooth and quick as a hardware KVM switch...

that's thanks to the 'secret weapon' that truly is the AnyDesk utility. I advise NOT using the latest version.. because they put more nag windows in the newer softwares... however the 2.7.1 version is quite possibly one of the most expertly, efficiently and miraculously devloped applications I have ever discovered...

it's impossible to overstate the importance of AnyDesk in my current workflow.. no stones left unturned at this point and absolutely ZERO phsycial movements to have full access to all the horsepower setup in the equipment room.

Posted on Thu, Mar 30 2017 17:01
by Dillon DeRosa
Joined on Sat, Feb 11 2012, Posts 19

Thank you so much for your detailed reply Jesse. 

I went ahead and followed your guide to almost exact as I can with my specs. And I have I'd say atleast 30% increase in performance overall. This is fantastic. So before in Cubase the green bar "average load" was at like 80% and realtime was at like 10% now after your settings there both idling around 30% a little above the first bar. 

A huge fix for that was taking off the ASIO guard and because of your fixes taking off Asio guard actually worked becasue before I never took it off because I would get so much lag and pops but now its working smoothly. Usually I have to let the new open cue run ones because some audio drops out but after 1 run trhough the next time the cue/piece runs smoothly. I believe this is due to that I'm running 100% of all my samples on multipel 7200 rpm hdd's as I have not yet switched to SDD's due to costs lol. However I think after that upgrade it will be running so smooth.

Also it's so weird I always read that you should have it on background services not programs but I guess thats just for pro tools or audio work? Working with VEpro I guess it benifits more with programs very interesting.

Also thank you for the affinty code since we're running the same processor I typed your code in and definitely work with increase in perfomance whilst have vepro on 2 threads per instance and having kontakt on 6 multi processor for the master pc sharing cubase and I left it on 8 for the slave since its just vepro over there.

THe only thing I couldnt get to work on my master pc (but it worked fine on my slave) is the "Vista Multimedia Scheduler Configuiration Tool".  I just could not get the program to open on my master.  Not sure why =S

I'll have to try Autodesk I was reading and it seems to have very low latency which might be better then what I'm using "Teamviewer". The only feature I'm worried about losing is Teamviewer automatically logs on when I start the slave so I can just open it on my master no problem. Does it work liek this with AutodesK?

Lastly, how much of a performance did you see in "virtual memory set to 0mb"? BEcause I noticed I can't load as much instruments when I set this to 0mb then when I had it on automatic. Does this negatively effect performance by giving more room in ram for more instruments? 

Thanks so much again and taking the time to reply to me. I hope you made your deadline! :D

Cubase Pro 11 latest
Dorico Pro 3.5 latest
VEPro 7.0.1056 latest
Baby Face Pro Audio Interface
PC Master Windows 10 latest
AMD 5800x Ryzen Cpu
128gbs of ddr4
Posted on Fri, Mar 31 2017 11:24
by jesse.nemitz
Joined on Sun, Jun 12 2011, Posts 27

Hey man that's fantastic to hear you are hitting your expectations with the settings switch! As for ASIO-guard, from my perspective, I lay the blame squarely at the feet of Steinberg who I believe funded the development of ASIO-guard to eventually put Paul (VSL) out of business... they know that their system resource management is over 10 years out of date... this is their attempt to shift their software architecture forward. At least they had the good sense to allow us (for now) to turn it off.

1.) Anydesk 2.7.1 easily loads as a service and can be shortcut from the master... in fact I have three shortcuts that are preset on my main taskbar for my slaves and even remote servers at a live performance array I administrate (I use 7+ taskbar tweaker to customize the taskbar but win10 might be different). I say 2.7.1 because one day i tried an update, and there were nag screens and changes.. so I advise only up to 2.7.1 which you can still easily find on net.

2.) I wouldn't worry too much about virtual memory until you get upwards 128gb. The idea is to manage which kontakt samplers (or intstruments like PLAY and OMNISPHERE, KEYSCAPE etc) are using DFD (direct from disk) or SAMPLER mode (direct from memory). This will be more important once you start using SSDs which can handle (to a certain extent) disk streaming at low latency. If you keep an eye out for instruments that could be streaming from disk INSTEAD of using your RAM... then you can provide an optimization step institutionally to squeeze even more performance out of your setup. Likewise, certain instruments (like 8DIO) can be run at even lower latencies if you force them to load entirely in memory, prohibiting DFD ad-hoc... I've just made a habit of loading 32-48gb of system memory with the instruments that need the fastest stream speed, and then using DFD spread across a 10TB ssd array selectively.

Finally, the reason we are inherently biased AGAINST windows virtual memory, is there is no transparent way to see exactly which tasks, services or applications are being allocating ACTUAL WICKED FAST MEMORY or slow, performance crushing disk cache access. At 64gb and careful memory management, I'm securing the entire system performance expecations, provided I'm aware of my memory headroom... By feeling a performance hit, it's evident you are approaching that headroom limitation of the 64gb enfironment and should probably keep it automatic (or fixed to a generous amount on your least used drives) until you are able to provide excess system memory to your workstation... I'm looking toward 256gb ECC in a dual Xeon (ES) setup.. I've built a few.. and have been blown away at their inherent capability for such a low cost.

3.) The MMCSS tool should not have been suggested to you since I now see you are Windows 10 and overlooked that fact. MMCSS is something I've noticed windows 10 already does quite well and I have not yet tweaked a win10 daw with that in mind... so most likely not a step I can advise at this point. The idea in that step of optimization was to provide instructions to the OS to prioritize CPU (during Pro-Audio tasks) over GPU and provide only 10% reserved for environmental system tasks... netting you a 10% increase from the typical setting of 20% reserved. It also implies that you keep the system scheduler virtually empty and prohibit all unnecessary processes from running in the background as is best practice in DAW machine management.

4. Regarding background processes: yes this is a surprising step but makes perfect sense after I did multiple steps of testing... as Vienna is reporting its processor requests to windows as a PROGRAM and does not load balance its own memory PID through windows service manager (BACKGROUND)... if it did, then we would have to select background instead of program... now as far as ASIO device driver process management..

...I honestly do not know how Steinberg, Novation, Avid or RME (or other developers) deal with process management internally frankly because they are not transparent enough to provide the necessary information and I just don't have time to track each process step down... honestly I believe that is the primary reason VSL GmbH will continue to provide software that absolutely decimates its competition for years to come.

As confusing and unaccaptable as this is, nothing can compare to the sadness I feel for my Apple-centered studio friends who are dealing with nothing short of a literal seige on their profession by their own software establishment. I have aided in the Windowsification of more Mac studios than I would like to admit in the past few years; **sigh** I guess us windows guys will soon no longer be the rebels in this profession... makes me wonder how Linux for pro-audio is doing these days lol. jk.

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