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  • Mahler: Complete orchestral songs as just accompaniments without singer

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    Hi there,

    it took several months, but finally I'm able to present the accompaniments of each Mahler songs (lieder) as far as they are considered as such and orchestrated by Mahler himself.

    It is the 4 "Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen", 12 songs from "Des Knaben Wnderhorn", 5 "Kindertotenlieder" and the 4 out off 5 "Lieder zu Texten von Friedrich RĂŒckert".

    It's all done with the special edition. It's only for two weeks that I bought the "big" solo strings and orchestral strings bundles. I (will) benefit from them doing "Urlicht" (2nd symph), "Wir genießen das himmlische Leben" (4th symph), "o Menschm gib acht" (3rd symph) and "Liebst Du um Schönheit" (RĂŒckert songs, orchestratio not done by Mahler himself).

    The "Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen" (songs of a wayfarer) and The Wunderhorn songs are also available in a special interactive format by "smartsoloist" (Massachusetts), That's why I think it wouldn't be fair to go on giving free access to my work in full length. But at least I feel free to call your attention to one of my public youtube virdeos containing 25 one-minute excerpts:


    I think of giving free access to the full length version for a fair price.

    PLease note that my skill has grown during the 8 months. So please listen to more than one cycle. I personally like best "my" Wunderhorns.

    Would be thankful for critical and fair replies.

    Yours

    Uli Schauerte

    Uli Schauerte


  • While waiting to listen to your work: you did something GREAT!

    This will be a great help to all scholars and students.

    Paolo


  • Hi Uli,

    Your effort is commendable in sequencing these masterpieces. It should have taken you amazing amount of effort to program these as Mahlers notation is intricate with detail. I am a huge Mahler fan (well who is not?) and I listened to your peices with a lot of curiosity, although havent listened fully.

    There are many things good about the way it came out. I like some of the woodwind parts. However, and I hope you take this as constructive and helpful criticism, I think this is still only about 50% of the way towards sounding realistic...to the extent someone serious in classical music (who has heard the likes of BPO and other 100 worlds famous orchestras play this) will take these renderings seriously. There is much much to be done in improving the phrasing and dynamics. I am sorry I dont have the time to go into detail of where it needs to be improved but I am sure you have listened to many recordings to know what I am saying..

    Now some may argue, why should it sound close to a real orchestra ? Afterall this is a virtual orchestra made with 21st century technology.....? Well, mainly because this is Mahler's music, which intended for a real orchestra, and you are employing the exact same orchestration and a using sample library that attempts to mimic real instruments. (as opposed to, for example, a reorchestration that uses some synthesized or other sounds)

    Although there are lot of points for improvement, one comment I can surely make is that the strings are very synthy...and this may not entirely be your fault. Its not easy to make VSL strings sound realistic out of the box. They generally lack vibrato. It takes some painful programming to make them sound good. I would really suggest again listening to a good recording of this and trying to mould the sound to match it.

    I dont mean to discourage you and hope this will help you improve your renderings much more and I look forward to hearing it.

    Best

    Anand


  • "Its not easy to make VSL strings sound realistic out of the box. They generally lack vibrato. It takes some painful programming to make them sound good." - agitato

     

    That is total horseshit.  The VSL strings sound awesome.  It is easy to make them sound good.  They all have vibrato except for senza vibrato patches. You don't know what you are talking about.  You may trash them with your own attempts at programming, but don't say ignorant crap like this. 


  • with the conceit and lack of modesty you can't progress with music. The remarks of Mr. Anand is correct: the strings have a fake sound and away from the real strings. To understand this you need to listen to the music being played by a real orchestra. I listen to this every day.

  • Sorry I got a little riled up and shouldn't sound obnoxious.  


  • Thank you for this rather fair and relevant comments. Maybe I feel like sometimes having reached a point closer to the goal than the 50% you concede. I’m saying “sometimes” cause the evening-filling* 25 songs unevitably represent different levels of realism and skills when using my VSL libraries and software, because they show different steps of a learning process. So listening to the one minute excerpts in that youtube video is a bit like studying a tree’s annual rings: although not consequently following the chronology of Mahler composing the songs, the story begins with the “Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen”.

    I dare to say that at least at great deal of my Wunderhorn songs (featuring strings as “Des Antonius von Padua Fischpredigt” or not as “Trost im UnglĂŒck”) might deserve a lighter sentence.   

    Confessing that it’s about sth. like learning by doing might sound like an unprofessional point of view, but the most professional decision would have been to keep my hands off the whole project, cause there was no commercial supply nor demand back in 2016 and there isn’t today. I apparently still am what I was one year ago: the only one to ever make such Mahler “karaoke” as far as it’s orchestral. My instrument as professional is the piano, but adoring the orchestral songs of Mahler I used to devote to them as a bathroom singer becoming more and more sad for there was nothing like all the “Music Minus One” piano concertos I enjoy playing along with the orchestra even at home. So please note: I would not even have worked on one single Mahler lied if anyone else had already done the job.  

    And at first I did not confide in my patience to tweak the orchestral versions but would make do with the piano ones. But then I felt that it’s decidedly Mahler’s genius and expressiveness as orchestrator which made me love the recordings I’m familiar with for decades.

    Since the time when I started I discovered a handful of piano accompaniments of different artistic levels spread over the internet, but even the complete songs as well done piano accompaniments would not have stopped me once being in the suction of the VSL world I had approached to after years trying to get along with hardware sample players or the Garritan stuff as part of “Finale” (notation software).

    Now, as the whole project has taken shape, I know that it was wrong to push along the decision of buying the big string collections in addition to my “special edition” libraries.

    But, again: I do not deny that my results tell the story of a learning process.

    To my experience one of the challenges dealing with the “special edition” strings is the slow attack of the legato patches which often forced me to choose the rather unexpressive all-purpose “sus” patches, especially when I needed looped samples for long notes. Maybe I should have achieved more subtle moments devoting to the editing features of the software (such as “envelope time stretching” or “humanize”) but maybe I thought that the “synthie” like sound is due to the reduced possibilities of the lower price segment. For the same reason I often preferred renouncing Mahler’s portamenti rather than using the miaowing ones offered in my patch repertoire. Good to know that you like some woodwind moments: I often felt in trouble with the slow attacks of several clarinet patches too.

    But keep in mind: Writing this self criticism I think of “Wenn mein Schatz Hochzeit macht” which is unforunately the very first song in the very first cycle and the very first...

    I dare to pretend that some “Wunderhorn” lieder benefit from having made some progressdealing with the challenges of making do with the special edition.

    Spontaneously I should say “Wo die schönen Trompeten blasen” is one of the first songs I did and maybe reveals similar problems as the slower “wayfarer” songs, but listening to all of my 12 Wunderhorn lieder, as a whole I feel much less like agreeing to what you say as if focusing on the Gesellen- or the Kindertotenlieder. 

    My Mahler is not yet ready. I did all of the 25 orchestral songs, but want to add the vocal symphony movements announced in my thread. The “Urlicht” has taken shape, and it is the first one carefully approaching to my new possibilities having purchased the big “solo string 1” collection recently.

    I’m still on my way (probably have reached less than 50%) discovering my new possibilities using the increased choice of string vibratos, portamentos – shortly: of all the things I’d better had bought at the beginning instead of waiting until this June when VSL made them cheaper for one month. 

    Please keep in mind. As there’s practically no supply nor demand I pay for my passion instead of being paid. As I said: It is “Verlor’ne MĂŒh” – a lost labour, but a love labour as well.   

    *Sorry for this germanism. I’m afraid my english is full them.


  • I will sign back in because I have to say congratulations to Uli - it is a huge impressive project and sounds very good!  I hope you can get to use a full extended string library - any one of them alone would allow you a much easier time with the articulation selection and you would not have to work so hard trying to make things expressive.  

    As I stated previously, the VSL strings sound great out of the box, and when handled by someone with your musical taste and expertise, they will create a spectacular performance.  It already sounds excellent in many sections.

    This looks like something you could market to singers who want more than a piano to rehearse to.  A rather specialized market but I can see it being valuable that way.  Also of course, you could also do your own special rendtion with these accompaniments if you got a singer to record  - that would be fantastic to do the entire cycles.  


  • I do agree Ulis project, is an amazing endeavour. There are many great parts in his rendering. But there ARE issues, and I am glad Uli did not take my post personally. There are parts that are very good, but parts that do need work. Acknowledging this is a step forward for Uli and all of us. 

    To say that VSL sounds good out of the box is misleading. Let me clarify. By this I DO NOT mean that the individual samples are not good....they are the best out there as I just said, from my experience. But what I meant when I said they are not good out of the box is that one needs to give intricately detailed articulations and dynamics to make them sound good. (NOTE: I DO NOT mean that one needs to change the frequency content of these samples...not at all !!!) This is much like a real orchestra with excellent musicians. Imagine for a moment that the performers are not human but mechanically receive instructions. They have to be specified exactly what to do with dynamics and articulation or otherwise they wont sound good. Even if they were humans, would anyone ever walk into, say the berlin philharmonic, and expect them to sound good 'out of the box'? Now add to that in the virtual instrument world, we ARE the composers, orchestrators, conductors, sound engineers all rolled into one. You expect this to be easy? If we want the virtual orchestra to eventually sound like a recording from the Berlin phil., thats not the right attitude.

    Obviously there are amazing demos on this site that prove what is possible with VSL. An example is Guy Bacos who is my fav here. He is a master 'conductor' of VSL in a sense since he knows how to make this orchestra sound amazingly real, with so much expression. 

    Cheers


  • Uli, sorry for the OT - the project sounds excellent so far and best of luck with it.  


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    Thanks, you brought me luck:

    As I must have forgotten to stop free access to one full length Youtube video of just my Kindertotenlieder, I was surprised this morning finding the first of them used as accompaniment by a highly respectable singer (I find) named Gustavo Monastra:


    He's asking me to sell him my orchestral Revelge playback too.

    The only shock: He's already published 2 Youtube videos using my long forgotten piano version of Revelge (I had enregistered last year long before I decided to do the orchestral ones). One of them in the low voice key (c minor) in which I had published it, the other one technicallly upshifted by him to d minor causing a terrific distortion making it sound scratchy like a phone call. So my first reaction after saying thanks was my urgent demand to remove it and replace it by a better sounding d minor version done by myself without paying for it.

    So my Mahler project won't make me a Dagobert Duck, but maybe I am wrong thinking that there's absolutely no market at all....

    Uli


  • That is really great and an example of how you might proceed with this, even providing transpositions. I can definitely see a demand for it.


  • Very interesting thread, yes.  


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    Hi William,

    (Having in mind how different you often reacted on my own projects) I am glad and happy to hear you talking so positive and encouraging about this project, which - when I remeber well - was initially (for instance concerning the realisation with VSL-Samples instead of the pianoversion) inspired by me.(see: https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1381677711862081&id=100000595954910) 😃

    Hi Uli,

    great that you finished your ambitious Project. I wish you that all encouraging and critical responses will help you to develop your VSL-Setup, Skills and Projectideas more and more.

    I am at least happy about every brother in mind who is working hard (like I am trying to do) to bring our serious music tradition on the technical level available in the 21th century. This is a very exciting task and very very much interesting work left to be done.

    Hold on and inspire us in future more and more with couragous projects like this.


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    Hi, St....

    pleased to meet you "out here" and thankful for your encouraging words. I'd like to phone you again one of these days, weeks, months. And I will post sth. detailed here, but have to take my time.

    Thank you all

    Uli

    Did I mention that after the complete Mahler songs I've published my first of his song-like symphony movements? Here we are:



  • excellent!


  • Hi Uli,

    Great music, great project, congratulations! 

    Could it be better? Of course. Some of the phrasing is a bit stiff. But still a very big accomplishment, and you can always return to your midi performances and make improvements when you have the time and inclination. The mix and spatialization sound great.


  • Thank you Paul,

    I totally agree. "Stiff" phrases is one of the reasons why I recently bought two of the bigger string bundles, but my Mahler playbacks do not yet benefit from them. They're all done with the special edition, which to my opinion is not to blame. But one of my problems when coping with the SE is the slow attack of some string (and clarinet) legato patches and the fact that the target notes are not looped. So they often had to be replaced by rather unexpressive "sus" patches both for passages needing a clear timing and for very extended notes lasting several bars. So some cantilenas loose their singing character and sound like just “unmusically” added notes. This is a detailed reply to what you write although I can only guess, that you mean the same thing as I do. So there's another self-criticism I have to offer: With Mahler, it sometimes was not easy to find the different gradations of pianissimo in songs, which also have sudden loud eruptions. It is like cutting the legs of a table without a cane. There is always remaining one leg too long. So you correct and correct and at the end there's almost nothing left but the tabletop. By the way: I’ve done the first steps of translating my German-speaking website into English and French.
    The Mahler page is the one I began with. So if you like you can visit it, for example to get free access to a video offering much more extended excerpts than the one you know: https://www.uli-schauerte.de/mahler-minus-you-english/
    So long

    Uli


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    Hi there,

    when I first presented my MAHLER MINUS YOU project here some months ago, I had already created the orchestral accompaniments of every Mahler song as far as orchestrated by the ccomposer and part of a lied cycle resp. collection. I had already added "Urlicht", but was not sure when or if I would add "Wir genießen die himmlischen Freuden" (4th symphony) or "O Mensch, gib acht !" from the 3rd one. Doing this kind of work is a deep joy for me, otherweise I'd never do it. On the other hand, I always felt sort of horrifired when asked if I think of doing the "Lied von der Erde" too. I sometimes do love Mahler more than any other composer (including myself not only sometimes) but an hour is an hour and a month is a month and a year is a year...

    I'm now posting this message to let you know that I was not able to overcome the temptation:Several weeks ago I first worked on the "Trinklied vom Jammer der Erde". There's an excerpt to listen to on:



    Thereafter I even finished "Der Abschied", which is by far Mahler's longest single "song", counting 572 bars and a playing time of 31 minutes. If you want to get an impression please listen to a 9-10 minutes excerpt on Youtube aswell:

    I would be interested in what you think about my recent results. Of course I would also be interested to know what to do in order to get a better following and to find people willing to buy my playbacks. There's one very fine tenor who's highly enthusiastic and making his recordings with help of my wav files. Besides him it's mostly people making me learn about exotic instruments I had never heard about before: A tĂĄrogatĂł (!) player uses my Kindertotenlieder, and my Urlicht is used by a theremin (!) player. Maybe you're smiling when reading this. Just like I did. But I have to admit that I slightly tend to give priority to singers.

    Thanks for reading (and maybe listening)

    Uli


  • Maybe this might inspire you. My friend Reinholf Behringer is since years very enthousiastic especially with programming Mahler with virtual Instruments. Beside many other Mahler Movements he has also already done Urlicht and Farewell, may be this is interesting for you:

    http://www.virtualphilharmonic.co.uk/Music.php