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Template with VEP: Logic or Cubase?
Last post Fri, Dec 22 2017 by Steve Steele, 18 replies.
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Posted on Mon, Sep 25 2017 17:07
by McArnes
Joined on Sun, Aug 27 2017, Posts 90

There seem to be a few tutorials on how to make a template in Cubase with VEP, but very little with Logic (?). That's probably not a good enough reason to get Cubase instead as I already have Logic Pro X. Having said that, I don't know much about Logic even if I've had it for some years. I have actually more experience with FL Studio than Logic, but Fl Studio on Mac is not ready yet. All I've done in Logic is recording some ideas, and the little I tried with the piano roll and automation was so different from FL Studio that I lost some motivation.I wonder if any of these DAWs are best when it comes to working with VEP?I will have the daw on the master Mac, and VEP is on the slave PC.Is it all about preferences, or is Cubase better as most ppl seem to use that with VEP? I've read that in Logic there's a limit on number of MIDI ports, so each instance in VEP can only have 16 channels. If I've understand it correctly.

Posted on Tue, Sep 26 2017 04:21
by RLD
Joined on Thu, Jan 26 2017, Posts 68

The advantage of Cubase is that you have the Expression Maps , this allow to change articulation more easly.

You can also look at Dorico

Logic can handle as many port as you want, look in MyVSL.

Posted on Tue, Sep 26 2017 09:40
by scorefrog
Joined on Thu, Sep 24 2009, Posts 62

Hallo Mc Arnes,

I'm not fully up to date but after having used Logic for a long time I siwtched already to Cubase 2 years ago and just am about goning to start learining it. If basic aspects didn't change (what I guess) than we have the following Pro & Con:

Pro Logic

1) Logic (as optimized for Macs) and especially Logic Pro X (which I dond't use) have a significant better CPU performance as Cubase on a Mac. Just on a PC Cubase gets this or even a better performance. Logic seems to have somethin like the double performance in idle (song not playing) and active modes.

 Pro Cubase

1) As alraedy mentioned: Expression Maps. You can switch articulations manually in the editor (in Logic callerd pianoroll editor)

2) the editor is by far more userfriendly imo, at least compared to old logic pro: Only the fact that though you can draw curves in both (velocity, modwehell etc.) under the notes, in logic it seemde a pain in the a. compared to the way you can draw it in Cubase. And also a little detail but very often needed, that in Cubase you can hit one of the piano notes to check which note you are on (even before your draw a note for example) or select a piano note and all the notes in this line are selected. I have no idea why logic never implemented this obvious stuff. Drawing automation curves is still very bad implemented at least in logic Pro (as I don't know or use logic Pro X)

3) Cubase FOLDER Tracks are great for orchestral templates. Nor Digital Performer, nor Reaper or any Sequencer i know have thos Folder Tracks. In Logic (this is the "funny" part) you can (and unfortunateley I tried) create so called "folder tracks" packing many sequences into one folder AFTER you recorded them and not BEFORE (as in cubase) which doesn't really make much sense. The Folder Tracks are a heaven send I guess. Especially in thos large orchestral templates.

4) Multiple stems: The ability to render audio to multiple stems. For example you can in one step create one Audio for Strings, one for Brass, one for Woodwinds one for melodic Percussion, Harp, Piano, one for not melodic Percussion and one for "Extras" in one go. I'd be surprised to here you can do that in logic meanwhile? Anyone who works with it may chime in.

5) With Logic you have this anoying AU Limitation not being able to use more than 16 Midi channels for one AU resulting in having to open many VE Pro Instances. This resulted in very enoying ONE CORE SPIKES pretty quickly when streaming many voices because even with VE Pro Logic has problems with distributing Processor load which Cubase ironically managed better having VST3. Now I know there are WORKAROUNDS for logic and I used them all. Again precious lifetime wasted in building complicated logic templates to work around the AU limitations and gues what? Again a freaking PAIN IN THE ... you know ... ;) x

6) for composing music to video again i don't know about logic por x but i find ite VERY usefull that when in Cubase you hit the arrow you step 1 FRAME forward and in logic I couldn't manage getting this to work.

So finally I got my huuuuuge Logic Pro template with: 

- Automation work arrounds (routing automation in a diferent way so that it doesn't get mixed up within the midi tracks!)

- AU 16 Channel limit work arounds

- complex routings in logics (very flexible i have to admit) environment even adding some nice "Voice splitters" to create some custom made "Auto-Divisi" Instruments which logic allows

- pre created tracks to pack them in logics folder tracks and beinig able to "unpack" and pack them with key commands quickly

-> And what for I have to ask my self? Month of messing around with work arrounds which in the end apperade desperate intends to not even COME CLOSE to the Cubase features I'd love to imitate in short which are (resumed):

1) Expression maps

2) professionally (easy) editable CC-Curves

3) Track Folders (vs Logic's "folder tracks")

4) Offline Bouncing to stems (propably not even reachable with a workaround)

5) VST3

So I'm more than happy to start with Cubase 6.5 (not even the newest one) even being on a Mac (where Cubase sadly is not optimized for). Any experiences of Cubase users here?  

Mac Pro 5.1 (mid 2010) Quad core / 48 GB RAM / El Capitan 10.11.6 / Velocity Duo PCIe Card with two 500 GB Samsung Evo 850 SSD mounted/ 2 Slave PC with Win 7 and 16 GB RAM each / Logic 9.1.3 / Cubase 6.5
Posted on Tue, Sep 26 2017 13:42
by Ashermusic
Joined on Fri, Jan 02 2009, Posts 543

If you buy Peter Schwartz's ARTz ID or Ski Switcher 3, then in Logic you now how have the equivalent functionality of Cubase's Expression Maps.

http://www.skiswitcher.com

Composer, Logic Pro Certified Trainer, author of "Going Pro With Logic Pro 9" & "Scoring WIth Logic Pro"
www.jayasher.com

3.4 i7 Quad Core iMac, 32 GB RAM.,
OS X 10.15.2
Posted on Tue, Sep 26 2017 14:50
by scorefrog
Joined on Thu, Sep 24 2009, Posts 62

Well ... ;)

Peter Schwartz and Ski Switcher's approaches remember me of those typical workarounds which require quiet a lot of intelligence and creativity in order to somehow deal with logics shortcomings :/

I highly respect those guys! 

But for us useres wanting to make music instead of prgramming this is one more work around added to my list! Jese i saw that Video and admired the flexibility offered by logics environment. But than again I compare the ELEGANCE of this solution:

https://imgur.com/a/In09e

to this one:

https://imgur.com/a/IDM6Y

... ;-/

Well I don't know but for a user asking in which direction to go and yet being at the beginning I'd say recomend Cubase if THIS is the way things are going with logic. 

Mac Pro 5.1 (mid 2010) Quad core / 48 GB RAM / El Capitan 10.11.6 / Velocity Duo PCIe Card with two 500 GB Samsung Evo 850 SSD mounted/ 2 Slave PC with Win 7 and 16 GB RAM each / Logic 9.1.3 / Cubase 6.5
Posted on Tue, Sep 26 2017 14:58
by Ashermusic
Joined on Fri, Jan 02 2009, Posts 543

Originally Posted by: scorefrog Go to Quoted Post

Well ... ;)

Peter Schwartz and Ski Switcher's approaches remember me of those typical workarounds which require quiet a lot of intelligence and creativity in order to somehow deal with logics shortcomings :/

I highly respect those guys! 

But for us useres wanting to make music instead of prgramming this is one more work around added to my list! Jese i saw that Video and admired the flexibility offered by logics environment. But than again I compare the ELEGANCE of this solution:

https://imgur.com/a/In09e

to this one:

https://imgur.com/a/IDM6Y

... ;-/

Well I don't know but for a user asking in which direction to go and yet being at the beginning I'd say recomend Cubase if THIS is the way things are going with logic. 

BUT, there is no way to compensate for Cubase's relative CPU inefficiency on the Mac. Anyway, not looking to start a DAW war, both are fine tools. But I have had a robust number of clients hiring me to help them set up Logic/SkiSwitcher/VE Pro templates and mostly they have been delighted with the workflow.

Composer, Logic Pro Certified Trainer, author of "Going Pro With Logic Pro 9" & "Scoring WIth Logic Pro"
www.jayasher.com

3.4 i7 Quad Core iMac, 32 GB RAM.,
OS X 10.15.2
Posted on Tue, Sep 26 2017 15:28
by scorefrog
Joined on Thu, Sep 24 2009, Posts 62

Originally Posted by: Ashermusic Go to Quoted Post

Anyway, not looking to start a DAW war, both are fine tools.

Me neither! Also I totally agree with you in Logic being more CPU friendly by far (at least again using those famous workarounds to overcome the 16 Midi-Ch. limit). It's just that I fought that battle for many, many years and am hardly tempted to go this route again. The only real argument for me to go through all that pain was logics CPU efficiency.  

Otherwise I am "angry with logic" >;) and NOT by any means with people like you or all the others who really HELP people working with logic which decide to do so! All my respect! In my opinion you are heros because without the help of all those "environment specialists" and people like you i would have felt lost in the middle of building a logic orchestral template. (There should exist quiet some of my desperate posts from those times and I remember you being one of the few lights here who helped me out! So I'm greatfull for that!! (My "bashing" goes against 'Apple's Logic' as oposed to EMAGIC in my eyes don't really LISTEN any more to musicians needs)

Mac Pro 5.1 (mid 2010) Quad core / 48 GB RAM / El Capitan 10.11.6 / Velocity Duo PCIe Card with two 500 GB Samsung Evo 850 SSD mounted/ 2 Slave PC with Win 7 and 16 GB RAM each / Logic 9.1.3 / Cubase 6.5
Posted on Tue, Sep 26 2017 15:33
by Ashermusic
Joined on Fri, Jan 02 2009, Posts 543

Scorefrog,  thanks for the kind words and I think the "not listening to people's needs" was absolutely true 3-5 years ago but in he last couple of years a TON of my and other working pros' longtime "wishlist" items HAVE been addressed, as apparently Apple loosened the reins on the Logic devlopers a bit.

There are no perfect DAWs, but right now overall I am very happy with the state of Logic Pro X.

Composer, Logic Pro Certified Trainer, author of "Going Pro With Logic Pro 9" & "Scoring WIth Logic Pro"
www.jayasher.com

3.4 i7 Quad Core iMac, 32 GB RAM.,
OS X 10.15.2
Posted on Tue, Sep 26 2017 15:40
by scorefrog
Joined on Thu, Sep 24 2009, Posts 62

Well never mind, it has to been said that you are one helpfull guy and it is good news to hear about things having changed in Logic. Of course we have to consider that I left logic (not even cared about testing Logic Pro X) and missed all of those developements. So good news for logic fans and of course there is no perfect DAW!

Maybe I'll give it a try with logic one day again under these circumstances. Simply because I am an Mac Pro and OS X Fan! :)

Keep up the good work!  

Mac Pro 5.1 (mid 2010) Quad core / 48 GB RAM / El Capitan 10.11.6 / Velocity Duo PCIe Card with two 500 GB Samsung Evo 850 SSD mounted/ 2 Slave PC with Win 7 and 16 GB RAM each / Logic 9.1.3 / Cubase 6.5
Posted on Tue, Sep 26 2017 15:44
by Ashermusic
Joined on Fri, Jan 02 2009, Posts 543

Scorefrog, you are one of the nicer people I have encountered on forums. All the best and if I can ever help you, let me know.

Composer, Logic Pro Certified Trainer, author of "Going Pro With Logic Pro 9" & "Scoring WIth Logic Pro"
www.jayasher.com

3.4 i7 Quad Core iMac, 32 GB RAM.,
OS X 10.15.2
Posted on Wed, Sep 27 2017 16:27
by PauloRego
Joined on Sat, May 14 2016, Posts 49

The only 2 things I dislike about Logic are:

- the inability to display multiple controller lanes at the same time below the piano roll. 

- the inability to unload tracks from memory (DP does this with one button click, Cubase with a couple)

Otherwise I love Logic.

Symphonic Cube Standard, Appassionata Strings I Standard, Fanfare Trumpets Full, Epic Orchestra, Vienna Instruments Pro 2, Vienna Ensemble Pro 6, Vienna Suite, MIRx Teldex Scoring Stage, The Sage Gateshead, Konzerthaus Grosser Saal & Konzerthaus Mozartsaal

Posted on Wed, Oct 04 2017 15:32
by samphony
Joined on Mon, Apr 10 2006, Posts 73

Originally Posted by: PauloRego Go to Quoted Post

The only 2 things I dislike about Logic are:

- the inability to display multiple controller lanes at the same time below the piano roll. 

- the inability to unload tracks from memory (DP does this with one button click, Cubase with a couple)

Otherwise I love Logic.

- the inability to display multiple controller lanes at the same time below the piano roll. 

There are workarounds for that when working with the current version.
You could either use the step editor in a seperate window below the piano roll
or show multiple controllers in the Workspace with activated automation view
and the Track automation changed to Region.
Maybe one day we will see multiple automation lanes...who knows.

- the inability to unload tracks from memory

if you show the on/off buttons on the track header you can unload a track
but it wont unload the instrument and potential sample sets (Kontakt 5) from RAM

Posted on Sat, Dec 16 2017 07:29
by avatarprod
Joined on Fri, Jan 03 2003, Posts 7
I am rebuilding my Logic template (ugh), and I have a fundamental question.
 
Can I have in ARTzID (with VE Pro 6 and in Logic) both Keyswitch/Hybrid mode AND the ability to change overall MIDI channels manually within the same VE Pro instance?
 
In a nutshell, I am trying to set up libraries like Spitfire Chamber Strings… So, say for Violins I, I have a “VIOLINS I (SCS)” instance in VE Pro… on MIDI ch. 1 I want the “Core Techniques” patch, and I need ARTzID to be in Keyswitch/Hybrid mode to access the various keyswitched articulations contained within. However, that doesn’t cover everything I need; so I want a 2nd instance of Kontakt (in the same VE Pro instance) to cover the “Decorative Techniques” patch. So, I want to put that on MIDI channel 2 and, hopefully, just switch the MIDI channel physically on my main controller.
 
Is that possible?
 
I can’t seem to get the basic ability to switch between either multiple Kontakt instruments set to different MIDI channels in a single VE Pro Instance or multiple patches within a single Kontakt set to separate MIDI channels at the same time I'm using ARTzID. I have tried playing around in the Environment, but I can’t find it. BTW, I am set to STAXX MK+Prg mode.
 
Thanks to anyone who can shed some light...
Posted on Sat, Dec 16 2017 11:01
by Cyril Blanc
Joined on Thu, Dec 19 2002, Paris France, Posts 2664

It's a nice chanllenge to do this ;)

If you want to send me your song, I can try to do it for you.

Send me a PM

Cyril

MacPro 2010 12 core 2.93 ghz 64 GB Mac OS X 10.11 2722 Rocket Raid Sata III card with 8 x ssd
VSL lib on a Raid 0 of 4 x 256 GB ssd Sata III - Raid 0 of 4 x 64 GB for other libs
System on a 1 TB ssd
Audio Motu PCI system 84 ins / 64 outs
Kbd : P80 Yamaha, S88 and S25 Komplete Kontrol, DX7
I-Controls Pro, 2xMidi expression pedals
Synth : many....
---
Macbook pro Retina 2.7 ghz 16 GB
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Mac Mini server 10.10 (server, Itunes, WEB, and Backup )
--
Logic X , Dorico, Band In A Box, ORB Composer
VSL : MIR PRO, Appassionata Strings I, Solo strings , Wind and Brass Complete, Dimension Brass, Big Band Orchestra series
Kontakt, Omnisphere, QLSO, QLSC, CS 80, Arturia V5, Maximo, Realivox Blue. CS 80 V3, The Orchestra 2, Art Conductor 5, Genesis Children Choir, Lunaris, Lacrimosa

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Posted on Sat, Dec 16 2017 19:55
by Markus47
Joined on Wed, Nov 28 2012, Posts 2

To the OP re articulation mapping in Logic, I have been quite happy with Audio Grocery's Logic Articulation Editor. I use it in my templates and it is simple and pretty flexible without need of getting into programming side of things. Just my 2cents.

Cheers

Posted on Thu, Dec 21 2017 19:14
by Steve Steele
Joined on Sun, Dec 04 2011, Posts 85

Originally Posted by: McArnes Go to Quoted Post

There seem to be a few tutorials on how to make a template in Cubase with VEP, but very little with Logic (?). That's probably not a good enough reason to get Cubase instead as I already have Logic Pro X. Having said that, I don't know much about Logic even if I've had it for some years. I have actually more experience with FL Studio than Logic, but Fl Studio on Mac is not ready yet. All I've done in Logic is recording some ideas, and the little I tried with the piano roll and automation was so different from FL Studio that I lost some motivation.I wonder if any of these DAWs are best when it comes to working with VEP?I will have the daw on the master Mac, and VEP is on the slave PC.Is it all about preferences, or is Cubase better as most ppl seem to use that with VEP? I've read that in Logic there's a limit on number of MIDI ports, so each instance in VEP can only have 16 channels. If I've understand it correctly.

I'm VSL Certified and have clients from all parts, especially Hollywood, and the four most popular DAWs for composer are Cubase, Logic, Digital Performer and Pro Tools (yes, Pro Tools).

They all have great things about them and I'm always looking over the fence to see what I'm missing. That being said, don't ignore Digital Performer. It has some features that you'll wonder how you ever lived without. I believe DP is the most effcieient with VE PRO on macOS, (I have no numbers to back that up), but DP is better optimized for macOS than Cubase, and DP allows for 48 MIDI ports which means you get 768 MIDI channels per VEP instance, (whereas Logic only allows 1 MIDI port per instance, which I see you already know). Jay may a workaround for that that he uses, (other than the Event Input).

No DAW is perfect, although there are many workarounds too improve each. Out of the box, I'm upset that Apple rarely updates their AU spec and limits Logic to 1 MIDI port, (clearly documented on Apple's Developer website. But Logic has the best Score Editor IMO, although DP's and Cubase's are pretty good. I also like the overall interface. I enjoy working in Logic.

Digital Performer is sometimes seen as an old school DAW, with separate MIDI and Instrument channels. However,  is a blessing in disguise, IMO. DP is very deep. But, oh boy, I wish they'd fix that tiny 1988 font problem. I'm not even that old and I strain to read some of DP's text! Wish more developers would support MAS, like VSL (bless you VSL), and AudioEase do, when it's more than just a wrapper issue. DP is deep, deep, deep..

Cubase is a wonderful DAW, especially with it's well integrated VST3 implantation. Thank goodness for Cusbasis on iOS. I find DP and Cubase so close in a lot of ways, but am a 25 year DP user, (v1.7) and there's no prying me away now.

My point is, don't sleep on Digital Performer. It's powerful. It might be a bit intimidating to new users, but you can try the free 30 day downloadable demo and see for yourself.

Not starting a DAW war here. Trust me. I love the BIG THREE and use them all (especially when I want to shake things up). Just wanted to suggest you take a look at DP.

 

Best wishes,

 

Steve Steele

 

VSL Certified Vienna Ensemble Pro Template Builder

Posted on Fri, Dec 22 2017 16:26
by Ashermusic
Joined on Fri, Jan 02 2009, Posts 543

I mostly agree with Steve's post. However, unless things have drastically changed with newer versions of DP, while it is a great DAW ( I would LOVE to have the Chunks feature in Logic) it is or was less efficient with CPU than Logic.

If you use Peter Schwartz's ArtZ ID (or SkiSwitcher if 16 MIDI channels ins enough, as it is for me) then the lack of MIDI ports in Logic is a non-issue.

All the DAWS have pros and cons but I have the definitive answer as to which one is best to use with VE Pro......wait for it.... it's cvming.., almost there....THE ONE YOU KNOW BEST!

Composer, Logic Pro Certified Trainer, author of "Going Pro With Logic Pro 9" & "Scoring WIth Logic Pro"
www.jayasher.com

3.4 i7 Quad Core iMac, 32 GB RAM.,
OS X 10.15.2
Posted on Fri, Dec 22 2017 23:12
by Steve Steele
Joined on Sun, Dec 04 2011, Posts 85
Originally Posted by: Ashermusic Go to Quoted Post
<p>I mostly agree with Steve's post. However, unless things have drastically changed with newer versions of DP, while it is a great DAW ( I would LOVE to have the Chunks feature in Logic) it is or was less efficient with CPU than Logic.</p>


Actually...😉 MOTU rebuilt DP’s Audio engine for v9.5. At first there were some major issues for most users. Now it’s great. MOTU likes to say it’s the fastest audio engine out there. The fact is that the last engine was pretty slow and us long time DP users didn’t know it! Now DP is up to speed with most good DAWs.

When VSL released the MAS version of VE Pro I thought it was just a nice gesture for us lonely DP users. But I think it had something to do with the new engine. Regardless, I’m loving DP 9.5 and VE Pro 6. Match made in heaven.

I still love Logic and Cubase though. All three are great. I would be happy using any of the three (I own all three). But you said it. The Chunks feature is just too good to give up!

Take care Jay!

Steve Steele



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