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Posted on Thu, Jan 04 2018 13:11
by djw
Joined on Thu, Jun 25 2015, Posts 36
Originally Posted by: javajam Go to Quoted Post
If crossfading between two layers should be a problem, mixing two similar sources should always be a problem too. Phase effect always occur everywhere in a stereo field. It may be more or less prominent but never a "phase issue" we can encounter with one single sample. And I disagree with your rule "phases are a problem when crossfading between velocity layers", as soon as they're made of different samples.


Think of it like this:

When playing one sample of 8 violins, you hear 8 violins.

If you mix (crossfade) this by 50% with another sample of 8 violins, you hear a composite of 16 violins.

It's more apparent with crossfading solo strings (where you will suddenly hear 2 instruments when mixing two samples), however the same effect still applies to ensembles. It may not bother you, but it's hard to deny that it's an issue.
Posted on Thu, Jan 04 2018 13:22
by javajam
Joined on Sun, Mar 13 2005, Paris, France, Posts 167

Originally Posted by: djw Go to Quoted Post
Think of it like this: When playing one sample of 8 violins, you hear 8 violins. If you mix (crossfade) this by 50% with another sample of 8 violins, you hear a composite of 16 violins. It's more apparent with crossfading solo strings (where you will suddenly hear 2 instruments when mixing two samples), however the same effect still applies to ensembles. It may not bother you, but it's hard to deny that it's an issue.


Where does it have anything to see with the phase ?

And who could say, while crossfading between two layers of a large ochestra : "I heard it, there were double the number of violins in the middle of the note !"... Seriously... Btw what will you do with the SyStrings if you want some divisi ?

Posted on Thu, Jan 04 2018 15:48
by djw
Joined on Thu, Jun 25 2015, Posts 36

Originally Posted by: javajam Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: djw Go to Quoted Post
Think of it like this: When playing one sample of 8 violins, you hear 8 violins. If you mix (crossfade) this by 50% with another sample of 8 violins, you hear a composite of 16 violins. It's more apparent with crossfading solo strings (where you will suddenly hear 2 instruments when mixing two samples), however the same effect still applies to ensembles. It may not bother you, but it's hard to deny that it's an issue.


Where does it have anything to see with the phase ?

The phasing is what makes it sound like more instruments. With a single instrument, there is no phasing until you crossfade, then there is and it sounds like two instruments.

Originally Posted by: javajam Go to Quoted Post
And who could say, while crossfading between two layers of a large ochestra : "I heard it, there were double the number of violins in the middle of the note !"... Seriously...

If you crossfade from one single sample to another single sample then the impact is the least. But if you don't take such care, you'll stay in between samples, meaning that most of the time you can hear more instruments playing than in the original samples. Of course this has impact on the sound, but like I said, it's a bigger problem with solo instruments.

Posted on Thu, Jan 04 2018 16:26
by fatis12_24918
Joined on Sat, Dec 16 2006, Posts 270

Originally Posted by: sururick Go to Quoted Post

Hi Fabio,

Thanks for the information. Is this the same Fabio from the GPO community!?

Regards,
Richard

 

Originally Posted by: fatis12_24918 Go to Quoted Post

Yes, "but it was long, long time ago..." (Cit.)

Posted on Thu, Jan 04 2018 18:25
by javajam
Joined on Sun, Mar 13 2005, Paris, France, Posts 167

Originally Posted by: djw Go to Quoted Post
The phasing is what makes it sound like more instruments. With a single instrument, there is no phasing until you crossfade, then there is and it sounds like two instruments.


Waow, that's sounds metaphysical, are we livin' on the same planet, I wonder... Doubling a main vocal is not applying phasing to the voice. Applying phasing to a guitar is not doubling the guitar. Phasing was initially used playing two analog tape recorders in sync and slightly slowing one reel with the hand and progressively releasing the hand pressure (or applying varispeed on later more sophisticated machines). Or having both machines slightly diverge relative to their slight speed difference. It means it's applied to one single source played twice at the same time. Phasing pedal effects replied this electronically some years later. Nothing to see with doubling.

Originally Posted by: djw Go to Quoted Post
If you crossfade from one single sample to another single sample then the impact is the least. But if you don't take such care, you'll stay in between samples, meaning that most of the time you can hear more instruments playing than in the original samples. Of course this has impact on the sound, but like I said, it's a bigger problem with solo instruments.


Please post a demo of what you say, maybe I miss something...

Here's a demo with SyStrings Violin & Cellos

I used LSXL Violins & Cellos, with both velocity Xfade and slotX (so double crossfade at the same time, velocity and vib/no vib)... Can you hear any phase issue or instruments number doubling ? Btw, the phase is regularly in between like any single original sample as it can be seen on the Goniometer. MIRacle Synchron Enhance applied.

Posted on Thu, Jan 04 2018 18:44
by MMKA
Joined on Tue, May 22 2012, Posts 383

Away from the whole discussion, what beautiful sound is this! Man, man, I can't help, but how beautiful is this!

Posted on Thu, Jan 04 2018 18:46
by djw
Joined on Thu, Jun 25 2015, Posts 36

I was not talking about phaser pedals... You just seem out to pick a fight and don't make any effort to understand what I mean. I'll pass.

On-topic: I hope to hear more impressions of Synchron Strings users.

Posted on Thu, Jan 04 2018 18:52
by javajam
Joined on Sun, Mar 13 2005, Paris, France, Posts 167

Originally Posted by: djw Go to Quoted Post
I was not talking about phaser pedals... You just seem out to pick a fight and don't make any effort to understand what I mean. I'll pass.


1- I'm not here to "pick a fight". I'm just fed up with people saying anything and everything without any concrete argue.

2- "Phasing" has everything to see with phaser pedals. And strictly nothing with doubling. Just take the right words, I'll be very pleased to understand then.

3- Can you just hear the issues you said before on my demo ? Just no, or yes and why and where. It's that simple.

Posted on Thu, Jan 04 2018 18:57
by javajam
Joined on Sun, Mar 13 2005, Paris, France, Posts 167

Originally Posted by: MMKA Go to Quoted Post
Away from the whole discussion, what beautiful sound is this! Man, man, I can't help, but how beautiful is this!


Thank you MMKA, it's just nothing, two string lines I did to explain what I'm trying to say. I spent some time to edit the velocity and slotX CCs a bit, nothing more ;-)

I think the sound of the Synchron is really great, subtile and rich.

Posted on Thu, Jan 04 2018 19:21
by FabioA
Joined on Fri, Jan 13 2012, Posts 89

Originally Posted by: javajam Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: MMKA Go to Quoted Post
Away from the whole discussion, what beautiful sound is this! Man, man, I can't help, but how beautiful is this!


Thank you MMKA, it's just nothing, two string lines I did to explain what I'm trying to say. I spent some time to edit the velocity and slotX CCs a bit, nothing more ;-)

I think the sound of the Synchron is really great, subtile and rich.


I really can't get why you have to be so presumptuous, when it's clear you are not a technician at all.
You have not concrete arguments neither. 
I don't want to enter the "doubling" argue, even if I can tell you that doubling HAS to do with phasing. Actually it's because of phasing addition and subtraction that you get a richer signal as a result of a voice doubling. 

Also, this argue started because someone asked why if you turn on Velocity xfade, VI PRO blanks out 2 layers. 
I said that in this way it was possible for programmers to achieve crossfading between layers. With too many layers it's hard/impossible. 
I'm not the perfect person to explain why, especially not to you; as I already said, there's none so deaf as those who will not hear.
The example you posted means nothing. Of course VSL provided us with a library with no issues.
And let me also say that if your Goniometer would notify phase problems while you play an orchestral library, it wouldn't mean there's a problem with layers crossfading, but probably that the stereo recording of those samples are not mono-compatible. 

Posted on Thu, Jan 04 2018 20:12
by javajam
Joined on Sun, Mar 13 2005, Paris, France, Posts 167

Originally Posted by: FabioA Go to Quoted Post

I don't want to enter the "doubling" argue, even if I can tell you that doubling HAS to do with phasing. Actually it's because of phasing addition and subtraction that you get a richer signal as a result of a voice doubling. [...] The example you posted means nothing.

In a sense I understand what you mean even if the term is not accurate. By doubling you get an addition of signals (made of waves, which have their proper phases) and timbres and different attacks and different pitches and different intensities of playing and playing delay differences. All this leads to a richer sound. To resume this to phasing only is just improper, it's a confusion between signal and phase. Phase is related to one single signal. Or to a result of source and reflections, still for a single recorded signal. And here we are talking about layering or crossfading between samples recorded at the same place by the same players in the same conditions.

Whatever, to go back to the initial debate, you said that velocity crossafde causes phase issues and again, I think it's just wrong. My demo means nothing ? Tell me what phase issue you find there while crossfading.

Originally Posted by: FabioA Go to Quoted Post
Also, this argue started because someone asked why if you turn on Velocity xfade, VI PRO blanks out 2 layers. I said that in this way it was possible for programmers to achieve crossfading between layers. With too many layers it's hard/impossible.


I asked this question. Well, you didn't say "with too many layers"... You said "It's a matter of phases problem when you have to crossfade between different samples..". Period. Should it mean that the 3 missing velocity layers are not original recorded samples but reused ones (?). That would be a good reason, don't know, just asked.

Originally Posted by: FabioA Go to Quoted Post
And let me also say that if your Goniometer would notify phase problems while you play an orchestral library, it wouldn't mean there's a problem with layers crossfading, but probably that the stereo recording of those samples are not mono-compatible.


The Goniometer was there to show there was no phase issue while crossfading. And you wrote that "phases are a problem" when crossfading between velocity layers, or did I dream it ?

Posted on Fri, Jan 05 2018 04:02
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5526

You know I was going to resign from this, but then I realized - I'll be damned if I'm going to  be shut down by a bunch of internet trolls.  

"I'm happy you are happy, and I wish you lot of satisfaction with your new fairly expensive toy."  - fatis12

No, you are not happy, you are sarcastic. To me it is a tool for professionals, not a toy.   

 

"Personally, I respect everyone here who thinks this is the best string library there is. I may disagree with it and explain, why, but I won't degrade their opinions by claiming such things, as you did. By those accusations you do nothing but making a fool of yourself. - fritzflotow

That is hilarious.  You respect everyone and then call them "fool." 

 

"Actually I'm sorry for "hijacking" the thread. But indeed, I felt that it was important to relativize what to me seemed like a somewhat misplaced and misleading hymn of praise" - jimmy hellfire

No you're not sorry - you are far too arrogant to be sorry.  Also - I ask again - what are your qualifications? You never responded before, and so I must assume - YOU HAVE NONE.   Post something of your actual music and then you'll shut me up if it isn't garbage.  

 

"That's not how a forum works. It's a place for discussion, not an echo chamber for  whoever started the thread. djw

I never asked for an echo chamber - just some respect instead of totally trashing a great new library by VSL ON THEIR OWN WEBSITE.  I think the people who do that are total scum.  

 

"The Goniometer was there to show there was no phase issue while crossfading. And you wrote that "phases are a problem" when crossfading between velocity layers, or did I dream it ?"  -  javajam

No, you didn't dream anything, you just wrote the most meaningless and boring post I have yet read on this Forum.  Tip:  Start writing AFTER you have an idea, not BEFORE. 

 

"Unfortunately, this seems common, especially with composers.  It is one reason I don't participate at most composer forums anymore.  I, for one, was glad to see your enthusiastic post.  I am very optimistic about Synchron Strings, and any future Synchron products. There is no reason for people to hijack a positive thread.  They could easily start a new one, and should.  Enjoy Synchron, I know I am.  It has already made its way into my current film score."  - dterry

Thank you dterry for a kind and friendly comment.  You are clearly a professional with some respect for other professionals. 

Basically on this thread I felt like a replay of the end of the original Night of the Living Dead - all the brain-dead zombies are breaking down the door and poring into the house.  

That is what happens on the internet - when people no matter what their knowledge or qualifications are all given the same voice.  The ultimate fulfillment of Nietzche's warnings about the future of Europe with total democratization.  

 BTW - did I offend anyone?  Like Jimmy Hellfire I am truly, really sorry.  If you are not a troll  go ahead and post your music to show your expertise, not just your big mouth..

I already asked that and I notice - no one did. Why? THEY DON'T HAVE ANY.    Go ahead and contradict me with actual music.  That will shut me up - if it's any good. 

WILLIAM KERSTEN

www.williamkersten.com

Posted on Fri, Jan 05 2018 06:24
by JimmyHellfire
Joined on Tue, Dec 24 2013, Posts 334

William is hijacking this thread. Not cool.

Posted on Fri, Jan 05 2018 08:18
by javajam
Joined on Sun, Mar 13 2005, Paris, France, Posts 167
Originally Posted by: William Go to Quoted Post

No, you didn't dream anything, you just wrote the most meaningless and boring post I have yet read on this Forum. Tip: Start writing AFTER you have an idea, not BEFORE.


You're welcome :-) I'm glad you did (thinking before writing).
Posted on Fri, Jan 05 2018 08:26
by Laurence
Joined on Sat, Apr 03 2004, Posts 10

Let me add my two cents. I have had the pleasure of working with great orchestras all over Europe for many years. Surely the object of creating a library like this one is to create the illusion of true high fidelity. This means that the technology dissapears and one is standing in front of an orchestra. VSL to my mind have set the bar concerning this and their Synchron library is I guess the Rolls Royce of string libraries. When it works in its final form with the Synchron player it is simply going to set the standard. People talk about legato a lot. What is legato? To my mind, and I can say at this point I spent 30 years persuing precicely that,  legato is a  singing style called Bel Canto which means that in essence the following note is always more important than the next. This is a huge deal because it has to do with intensity, steadyness of tone breath ( or bow ) control, phrasing  etc. This is where Synchron will win, because the many veloicities allow you do do precicely that. This along with the beautiful piano and flautando samples are something so beautiful. Sure there are hundreds of string libraries out there , all out doing each other with big and bold and lush lines. Music however begins and ends is silence. Beethoven taught us this, and this is something VSL understand more than any other company out there.I am as an artist hugely grateful that Vienna Symphonic library have come so far with this fantastic technology and manage to make it available to people like myself at such a reasonable price. Thaks VSL you guys rock!! 

Posted on Fri, Jan 05 2018 08:28
by Piotr Katzpersky
Joined on Mon, May 11 2015, Polska, Posts 30

Well, that escalated quickly ;D

And basically I would like to leave it be, but... Nah, troll will be troll :)

"That is hilarious.  You respect everyone and then call them "fool." "

You can respect a fool, it's not contradictory, at least in my opinion ;)

"No, you are not happy, you are sarcastic. To me it is a tool for professionals, not a toy."

"Also - I ask again - what are your qualifications"

Why are you constantly bringing back "profesionalism" as your weapon of choice? You seem to be (based on your web site) pretty creative, prolific artist. And some of those short snippets on your site sounds really great. Yet your arguments seems to be most dismissive...

"I never asked for an echo chamber - just some respect instead of totally trashing a great new library"

Please, read again everything people here wrote. You might be surprised how much positive aspects we covered. Plus a bit of additional hope for even more. And some trashing too. Sure.

"Thank you dterry for a kind and friendly comment.  You are clearly a professional with some respect for other professionals. "

So you basically like to look in the mirror right? ;)

"I already asked that and I notice - no one did. Why? THEY DON'T HAVE ANY.    Go ahead and contradict me with actual music.  That will shut me up - if it's any good. "

I think no one here said anything bad about your music per se. While music and performance are inseparable, they are not the one. I see here mostly remarks over performance, not composing. If someone says something to me that might improve me as a person, composer, I think of it and then apply or discard. I don't think if he or she is pro enough to teach me.

Still I would like guys from VSL to chime in about our doubts/hopes, but maybe in this thread it would come as a risky thing to do. So I agree that our clear and constant negativity should be channeled in separate thread.

ps.

In my first post I mentioned that my Synchron piece is available to all of you on my orfium (link in description). Feel free to bash it. Maybe I'll learn something valuable.

Posted on Fri, Jan 05 2018 09:50
by fatis12_24918
Joined on Sat, Dec 16 2006, Posts 270

Originally Posted by: William Go to Quoted Post

You know I was going to resign from this, but then I realized - I'll be damned if I'm going to  be shut down by a bunch of internet trolls. 

...Basically on this thread I felt like a replay of the end of the original Night of the Living Dead - all the brain-dead zombies are breaking down the door and poring into the house.  

That is what happens on the internet - when people no matter what their knowledge or qualifications are all given the same voice.  The ultimate fulfillment of Nietzche's warnings about the future of Europe with total democratization.  

 BTW - did I offend anyone?

Answer yourself. You didn't answer any of the technical questions and objections, by the way.  Do you really think that going on offending people makes your opinion stronger and you a professional? When you are back from your flame mood, we can be back talking about music and technology. I'm waiting for...

Posted on Fri, Jan 05 2018 11:36
by javajam
Joined on Sun, Mar 13 2005, Paris, France, Posts 167

Hi guys,

I've re-read this thread and wish to:

- first, apologize for the tone of some of my words which have been quite rude here and there, I'm usually more friendly than that... Don't know, yesterday must have been my sharp angry day I guess, sorry for having shared that!

- apply some update to my first question which was: why velocity crossfade has only 5 of (presumed) 8 layers. Actually, I checked the patches I was working on a bit more deeply, long legato ones. They have 5 initial layers only (1-40 / 41-60 / 61-80 / 81-100 / 101-127). So this question is obsolete.

- say that the Synchron sounds great to me on first approach, with a nice, clean and rich tone. I can't fully make my opinion about by using it in a real workflow as we have to wait for the full articulations and I guess the expression maps are not available yet. But I think we can expect for something nice and we'll most probably have more to say when the Synchron Player will be released.

- and end up saying the velXfade is a main feature to me. It allows to go to some expressive and/or romantic style, along with with some other CCs (slotX, expression) and final mix. Every library requires work on articulations and expressivity, like a real player has to work on his own performance as well. That's the only way to try to bring it closer to the real thing, or it sounds flat and artificial. It looks like there will be something new with the future player, I've read somewhere the velXfade shouldn't be needed anymore or something like that. So I'm curious and can't wait for...

Best

Posted on Fri, Jan 05 2018 14:46
by Ashermusic
Joined on Fri, Jan 02 2009, Posts 543

I think trying to judge it without the full articulations and Synchron player is a bit like trying to judge an elephant while blindfolded by feeling its trunk, so I will wait.

Composer, Logic Pro Certified Trainer, author of "Going Pro With Logic Pro 9" & "Scoring WIth Logic Pro"
www.jayasher.com

3.4 i7 Quad Core iMac, 32 GB RAM.,
OS X 10.15.2
Posted on Fri, Jan 05 2018 14:56
by fatis12_24918
Joined on Sat, Dec 16 2006, Posts 270

Originally Posted by: Ashermusic Go to Quoted Post

I think trying to judge it without the full articulations and Synchron player is a bit like trying to judge an elephant while blindfolded by feeling its trunk, so I will wait.

Words of wisdom.

(I quoted this point from the very beginning. Peace and love. )

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