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Posted on Thu, Jan 04 2018 18:54
by fatis12_24918
Joined on Sat, Dec 16 2006, Posts 307

 

Well, I read the manual first but it wasn't mentioning this point. Perhaps it has been discussed somewhere but for me it was a (bad) surprise:

- I had the habit of using Expression to smooth and shape (on-the-fly) the notes envelope, often going down to zero at the end, or anyway at very low level.

- Of course it was working very well with external Reverb (MIR Pro, in my case) because you may mimic the sound emission of the instrument, but the ambience and reverberation stay untouched.

- Now with Synchron Strings, the reverberation is embedded in the release sample tail, and if you operate on the sample envelope with cc11, you reduce to zero or too-low level the release tail as well! It is meaning getting a dry and unnatural sound from the notes being shaped with Expression.

Of course I can manage a bit with a little overall reverb (e.g. MIRacle Synchron Stage enhancer on the master channel) but it has some consequences (adding a general wetness and blurring a bit the beautiful original ambience that should be the added value of Synchron Strings.)

On the other side, reducing the amount of Expression will drive to better ambience, but worse musicality and flat performance.

Anything I'm doing wrong? Any different solution?

(I'm wondering if the Synchron Player will be able of managing the issue via software, for instance with a dedicated envelope/processor for the release samples, that will "delay" proportionally the effect of cc11 to let the reverb ring before being closed by Expression etc.)

Posted on Thu, Jan 04 2018 21:23
by suon
Joined on Sat, Sep 04 2010, Posts 106

Interesting =)   

So the obvious thing you probably already know about is that velocity xfade (whatever CC control you want to assign it to) can accomplish a similar effect as varying CC11 volume.

But I guess what you are really talking about is that it's useful to separate timbre changes and volume changes by using both velocity xfade and CC11, right?

I think it's actually still possible to vary CC11 with realism, but it's necessary to be more conservative about *when* you can change it.  We can probably assume that reverb is basically a linear operation.  That means the baked-in room sound should be realistic no matter what volume is set.  So as long as you do not adjust CC11 while the instrument is actually making sound (especially while reverb tails are audible), I bet you can avoid the problem you're talking about.  While the instrument is making sound, any variation you would like to do while the instrument is making sound can still be done with velocity xfade.

Actually, we can probably go a few steps further and be less conservative about it:

  • If you vary CC11 slowly enough, then the difference in reverb tails being slightly longer or shorter will not be noticeable.
  • Depending on your mix and which articulation, maybe the sustained note can mask the reverb.  So maybe you can also modify CC11 while notes are being sustained, as long as you don't modify CC11 when reverb tails are audible.
  • If your orchestration is dense enough, other instruments are likely to hide reverb tails a lot, so you may also be able to change CC11 more aggressively while other instruments hide the weird reverb tail issue.
Posted on Thu, Jan 04 2018 22:06
by FabioA
Joined on Fri, Jan 13 2012, Posts 89

I had the same question in my mind since they announced Synchron Strings :)
In my template, all VSL Strings have the dynamic range around 125-127, so that I can work on the dynamic just with the velocity xfade  without using Expression, still having the chance to start "dal niente" and close a phares with "niente". That dramatically improved the realism and expressiveness of VSL strings in my mockups.
As you perfectly described, that way works perfectly because the "shaping" is applied to the dry sound, before the reverb. And at the moment, the overall reverb that you mentioned is the only think that could help.
I'm not particulary worried about the attack of notes, the lo-soft patches are pretty great, but I'm worried about the end of phrases.

I wanted to ask suggestion to VSL support, so thanks for starting this thread!

Posted on Fri, Jan 05 2018 10:22
by fatis12_24918
Joined on Sat, Dec 16 2006, Posts 307

Originally Posted by: FabioA Go to Quoted Post

I had the same question in my mind since they announced Synchron Strings :)
In my template, all VSL Strings have the dynamic range around 125-127, so that I can work on the dynamic just with the velocity xfade  without using Expression, still having the chance to start "dal niente" and close a phares with "niente". That dramatically improved the realism and expressiveness of VSL strings in my mockups.
As you perfectly described, that way works perfectly because the "shaping" is applied to the dry sound, before the reverb. And at the moment, the overall reverb that you mentioned is the only think that could help.
I'm not particulary worried about the attack of notes, the lo-soft patches are pretty great, but I'm worried about the end of phrases.

I wanted to ask suggestion to VSL support, so thanks for starting this thread!

 

Yes it's about the end of phrases I'm worried: it was the most evident effect/artifact.

Yes I also did a wide use of cross-fading (both cell and velocity) combined with Expression in the past, but with Synchron I find cross-fading more difficult and more compromising realism and sound: it seems VSL developers were thinking the same, since they try to limit cross fadings (mostly for resources savings of course, but for sonic result as well I suppose). Let's see if Synchron Player new features cover this field as well (maybe not, but still I hope, and I should recommend... not an easy task by the way for programmers: synchronizing release samples it's always a pretty tricky process).

Posted on Fri, Jan 05 2018 10:34
by fatis12_24918
Joined on Sat, Dec 16 2006, Posts 307

P.S. ...well, a solution can be also the FX effect channel automation: if you create a send to the reverb, and you rise reverb at the end of the phrase only, it will not pollute the rest, and it will start playing only when the sound get dry and naked... but it is not the quickest and easiest solution to implement.

I still hope something more automatic is possible...

Posted on Fri, Jan 05 2018 10:46
by Saxer
Joined on Sat, Apr 18 2009, Frankfurt Germany, Posts 115

I didn't invest much time into Synchron Strings up to now (waiting for the complete library) but in my few early tests I didn't hear a release killer. I also have the crossfade sensitivity of all my VSL libraries set to 126 (nearly silence on dynamic CC down). It's right, on decrescendo the room is going down with the samples while in real world the room tail fades later than the instruments. But Synchron Strings do very smooth fades (probably caused by the lot of layers). It's much smoother than in compareable room recorded libraries. And at the end you will add a nice Lexicon tail anyway. This is done in mixes of acoustic recordings as well and isn't really audible but glues together everything. Doesn't need to be wet and washy. Just a tasteful shimmer on top. And it smoothes out all fades. Actually Synchron Strings does the best CC driven 'to silence' fades I heard up to now. Dry libraries included.

Posted on Fri, Jan 05 2018 14:59
by fatis12_24918
Joined on Sat, Dec 16 2006, Posts 307

Originally Posted by: Saxer Go to Quoted Post

I didn't invest much time into Synchron Strings up to now (waiting for the complete library) but in my few early tests I didn't hear a release killer. I also have the crossfade sensitivity of all my VSL libraries set to 126 (nearly silence on dynamic CC down). It's right, on decrescendo the room is going down with the samples while in real world the room tail fades later than the instruments. But Synchron Strings do very smooth fades (probably caused by the lot of layers). It's much smoother than in compareable room recorded libraries. And at the end you will add a nice Lexicon tail anyway. This is done in mixes of acoustic recordings as well and isn't really audible but glues together everything. Doesn't need to be wet and washy. Just a tasteful shimmer on top. And it smoothes out all fades. Actually Synchron Strings does the best CC driven 'to silence' fades I heard up to now. Dry libraries included.

Hi Saxer, we were discussing of a sustain note getting muted by Expression (cc11 or whatever you set-up).

Just try and you will get the point. Cheers, F.

Posted on Fri, Jan 05 2018 19:01
by HSM1
Joined on Thu, Oct 25 2012, Frankfurt, Germany, Posts 33

Originally Posted by: Saxer Go to Quoted Post

I didn't invest much time into Synchron Strings up to now (waiting for the complete library) but in my few early tests I didn't hear a release killer. I also have the crossfade sensitivity of all my VSL libraries set to 126 (nearly silence on dynamic CC down). It's right, on decrescendo the room is going down with the samples while in real world the room tail fades later than the instruments. But Synchron Strings do very smooth fades (probably caused by the lot of layers). It's much smoother than in compareable room recorded libraries. And at the end you will add a nice Lexicon tail anyway. This is done in mixes of acoustic recordings as well and isn't really audible but glues together everything. Doesn't need to be wet and washy. Just a tasteful shimmer on top. And it smoothes out all fades. Actually Synchron Strings does the best CC driven 'to silence' fades I heard up to now. Dry libraries included.

 

Not at all... try it again on Sustain patch and you will get the wrong result with Sustain patch by using of expression.

http://softwarearchitectblogs.wordpress.com/

Dimension Strings, Orchestral Tools Berlin Strings, Spitfire Audio Chamber Strings, Spitfire Audio Symphonic Strings,
Hollywood Strings, LA Scoring Strings, Hollywood Brass, Symphonic Choirs, Symphonic Orchestra
Posted on Sun, Jan 07 2018 12:02
by fatis12_24918
Joined on Sat, Dec 16 2006, Posts 307

Originally Posted by: fatis12_24918 Go to Quoted Post

...

- Now with Synchron Strings, the reverberation is embedded in the release sample tail, and if you operate on the sample envelope with cc11, you reduce to zero or too-low level the release tail as well! It is meaning getting a dry and unnatural sound from the notes being shaped with Expression.

Anything I'm doing wrong? Any different solution?

Well, yes the Expression is a volume changer and goes to zero, cutting release and reverb of course.

Paul explained very well in the last video that Expression is considered just a little fine tuning and not the main controller (in general it was always the VSL philosophy, but it's even more important for Synchron now).

Then I've to change the mix of controllers and adjust my envelopes to the actual recommendations.

It's ok, but personally, I find velocity cross fading still a bit unnatural (for several reasons, from temporary build-up of sound during transition, to little perceivable steps, and to ambience artifacts): let's experiment best solutions and wait for Synchron player of course! Looking forward... :)

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