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Synchron Piano sympathetic resonance and silent key
Last post Thu, Jun 23 2022 by Nottipiglet, 72 replies.
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Posted on Thu, Dec 02 2021 15:26
by Phil2
Joined on Wed, Jul 20 2011, Upstate New York, Posts 6

Hello again Paul,

I will add that I've done extensive analysis of my piano sound versus numerous recordings at YouTube and it's clear that when both are using no pedal, mine is superior. When both are using the pedal, mine is superior. But when the recordings are using the pedal and mine is not the recordings are superior.

One main difference with virtual pianos is to get the full pedal resonance you have to have the pedal down before the note is struck. With a real piano, if you depress the pedal immediately after striking a note you will still get most of the resonance. I've checked this on my piano. But not with the virtual piano. And it's extremely difficult if not impossible to have the pedal down before the note without catching the previous note — unless you want an audible gap in sound. I've spent many hours working on this and analyzing all of this. Plus the pedal down samples would give a delightful sound to all notes that are played.

If desired, you could give the option of having the pedal down samples for every microphone position individually, in case some people wanted to mitigate the effect. But it should definitely be available for all the microphones.

I am currently just redoing the recordings I made years ago using your earlier Bösendorfer Imperial and the midi clips I made then, with your Steinway. Thanks, Phil

Posted on Fri, Dec 03 2021 15:15
by Phil2
Joined on Wed, Jul 20 2011, Upstate New York, Posts 6

I would very much appreciate a response, Paul. And if you don't intend to do this please tell me why. It seems like it would be a very simple thing to do and would make many people happy. Theoretically everyone.

If you absolutely won't do it I will have to figure out a way to do it myself. But it will be extremely time consuming, and if I have to do it I want to get started on it now.

I guess I'm dumb but it took me a long time to realize why sometimes my mix sounded better than other recordings and other times it sounded worse. I guess it's because I assumed the sympathetic was doing what you said it would. My solution this would definitely make it a superior piano.

Best, Phil

Posted on Wed, Dec 22 2021 21:33
by MikeR1154
Joined on Sun, Sep 19 2021, Posts 5

I just wanted to put in another vote for improved sympathetic resonance, silent key, and improved una corda (ideally samples, but a better algorithmic una corda, perhaps with adjustability, would also be great). I'd probably put una corda first on that list--and would even pay for an upgrade that included true una corda samples.

Posted on Wed, Dec 22 2021 23:28
by Phil2
Joined on Wed, Jul 20 2011, Upstate New York, Posts 6

I'm certain they won't do una corda since they have to re-record the entire pianos and it would effectively double the size of the download. Frankly I don't even like it on my Baldwin 5'8" grand because when the dampers come down they make a little bit of a twang because not all the strings are vibrating equally. It was that way when it was new. But the sustain resonances would be very simple for them to do.

I've been doing the sustain resonances myself using the sampler Kontakt. If anyone else wants to know how, let me know. It's a bit of work.

Posted on Sun, Dec 26 2021 17:52
by MikeR1154
Joined on Sun, Sep 19 2021, Posts 5

Originally Posted by: Phil2 Go to Quoted Post

I'm certain they won't do una corda since they have to re-record the entire pianos and it would effectively double the size of the download. Frankly I don't even like it on my Baldwin 5'8" grand because when the dampers come down they make a little bit of a twang because not all the strings are vibrating equally. It was that way when it was new. But the sustain resonances would be very simple for them to do.

I've been doing the sustain resonances myself using the sampler Kontakt. If anyone else wants to know how, let me know. It's a bit of work.

I agree true una corda samples are unlikely--but a better una corda model should be doable--and as I think someone else on this forum mentioned could be adjustable (maybe even including felt or moderator options as as alternatives to una corda effect).

Nevertheless, I think una corda samples should be considered, at least for a limited set of pianos and/or mics. The Steinway perhaps has a large enough market to support una corda as a paid upgrade or even separate alternative instrument. The 280VC might be another good candidate, on the assumption Stage B makes scheduling a new recording session easier.

Posted on Sun, Mar 20 2022 02:28
by TooManyTims
Joined on Wed, Dec 08 2021, Posts 1

Hi all.

I want to add another voice to the call for proper sympathetic modelling. Its quite startling to me that:

  • a product at this price point does such a terrible job of it
  • the pianos sound as good as they do without it.

I had to laugh (and agree) with one of the previous comments that referred to it as a “mud slider”. I simply can’t find any level/gain which creates a pleasing enhancement to the sound of the piano.

What’s baffling to me (and I assume and honest mistake???) is that the online manual correctly describes the way you should be able to generate/hear sympathetic resonance, and I quote “You can hear this effect when you hold down a key without sounding it and then briefly hit another key”. https://www.vsl.info/en/manuals/synchron-pianos/play-view

As all of you know, it simply does not work in the way it should (and as described in the manual). Also, as others have already pointed out, products at much lower price points (like Ravenscroft and a think Garritan) do a great job this and to great musical effect.

@VSL. You have some truly great piano libraries (at least to my ear) with the Synchron series and your 14 day returns policy is such a welcome thing for this industry but, please add proper sympathetic modelling (and silent key for that matter). This would turn your already good product into the only piano VST anyone would ever need.

Tags: sympathetic
Posted on Sun, May 15 2022 05:25
by Boy
Joined on Sat, May 14 2022, Posts 1

Embertone Walker 1955 1.1 update already make it come true.  

Posted on Wed, Jun 01 2022 19:18
by Snoopy10
Joined on Sun, Dec 22 2019, Stuttgart, Posts 31

I have to agree with you completely in all aspects. I completely agree with you. I am also a programmer and what you say is just so. It doesn't take 10 minutes to solve the problem. It is simply incomprehensible why it is not possible to spend 10 minutes on this problem in 3 years. Also the problem with symphathek resonance is very unsatisfactory. After all, you have also paid for this function. This is not ok.

Georgy
Posted on Wed, Jun 01 2022 19:26
by Snoopy10
Joined on Sun, Dec 22 2019, Stuttgart, Posts 31

Yes, I also think that it is about time that these two important problems are solved. Please write all your frustration here, if you have the same problem. It's no use if you just read it, agree, but don't write anything about it. It only happens something if there are enough frustrated buyers and then just buy other products. Sorry for my English, I am not good at it.

Georgy
Posted on Wed, Jun 22 2022 19:57
by Nottipiglet
Joined on Mon, Jun 06 2022, Singapore, Posts 2
I would like to vote for silent key and sympathetic resonance as well. It is actually quite shameful for a premier product like VSL to ignore rather standard industry features like sympathetic resonance and silent keys. All my other piano players are able to do it.
Kevin
Posted on Thu, Jun 23 2022 05:07
by JoelW
Joined on Wed, Jun 02 2021, USA, Posts 8

I also support and request this feature. Many other VSTIs correctly implement those. From a developer perspective silent keys shouldn't be that difficult to implement (except for UI/config/etc.), since we could ignore generating sound for notes when it is below a threshold keydown velocity.

Sympathetic resonance would be more challenging one, but it's noteworthy there has been a lot of criticism in the community about the poor sympathetic resonance. Having those features will make VSL synchron pianos even greater.

Posted on Thu, Jun 23 2022 08:05
by Nottipiglet
Joined on Mon, Jun 06 2022, Singapore, Posts 2
I believe these issues have been highlighted to VSL a long time ago. Unfortunately, it did not get the attention it deserves. I believe that sympathetic resonance and silent keys are necessary features to create a realistic playing experience, but VSL has ignored it because users assume that the features are there (since they are basic), and only realize that they are missing after making the purchase and playing with it for a couple of days. I speak from experience.

VSL is ignoring it because it does not hit their bottom line. However, I think it will hit sales once people get to know about it. I, for one, would not have made my purchase if I knew of the missing features.

VSL is of the view that they should spend their resources sampling new pianos because it looks nice in their annual marketing drive. The way to change this is to make this lack of essential features known across all VST forums. I believe very few serious pianists will bother with VSL if they know that silent keys and sympathetic resonance are missing in synchron. Once it hits their sales numbers, VSL will be forced to put it in their development roadmap.

Let’s start a campaign to disseminate this information? I am sure we can conquer this.
Kevin
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