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Posted on Sat, Jul 21 2018 20:36
by Beat Kaufmann
Joined on Fri, Jan 03 2003, Switzerland/Brugg, Posts 1726

Hello
Here is a short version of Stars & Stripes by Sousa
(Strings Version) - once played with the new Chamber Strings, once with the Synch Str 1 and once together, as mentioned in the Chamber Strings video by Paul Kopf.

With Synched Chamber Strings

20% Wet, no EQs, just a little spiced up with Compressor and Co. and just a little short tail over all (10%, sum channel, ca. 1.8s)
http://www.beat-kaufmann.com/Cre_Syn_ChStr_Stars-and Stripes.mp3

With Synchron Strings 1

Room-Mics 100% Mid 20% Main 100%, no EQs except the double bass, a little bit spiced up with Compressor & Co. just a little tail in the sum channel (10% around 2s).
http://www.beat-kaufmann.com/Cre_Syn_Strings_Stars-and Stripes.mp3

Both together

(just a little tail in the sum channel (10% around 2s).
http://www.beat-kaufmann.com/Cre_Syn_Strings_and_ChStr_Stars-and Stripes.mp3

Have fun

Beat

www.musik-produktion-createc.ch (Konzertaufnahmen, Musik mit Samples)
at www.beat-kaufmann.com : MIXING an ORCHESTRA - TUTORIAL
Posted on Sat, Jul 21 2018 23:53
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5512

Beat,  I have have great respect for you,, and know you are an expert in MIDI programming and a fine musician.  But I cannot begin to understand what you are doing here.  This sound instantly SCREAMS "Digital!"  "Electronic!" Samples!" No one on the planet would think this was anything but a digital fake.  It is also very bad to hear  the greatest march of John Phillip Sousa subjected to this treatment.  This is a piece for BAND, not strings.  It is a powerful march, one of the finest ever written, and when played well by a great concert band like the Eastman Wind Ensemble, or the U.S. Marine Band, it is beautiful.  It should not be abused in this way.    

How can you think this sounds good?  It is just awful.  It is like going back to the 1980s and hearing an early string ensemble module trying pathetically to ape strings and failing utterly.  There is a total retrogression here.   

I am not trying to make you mad, but I think you have fooled your ears by focusing too intensively on this and need to step back and listen objectively and realize just how bad this sounds.  Your other music is of such high quality I find it shocking that you think this is good.  

btw VSL - I am not attempting to cause trouble, but feel if someone has a strong reaction - which in this case was severe to me - they should say something and express honestly what they think instead of keep quiet and be nice.  That is the purpose of a Forum, even if not always pleasant.  

Posted on Sun, Jul 22 2018 01:02
by Acclarion
Joined on Sat, Aug 15 2015, Canada, Eh!, Posts 513

Originally Posted by: William Go to Quoted Post

Beat,  I have have great respect for you,, and know you are an expert in MIDI programming and a fine musician.  But I cannot begin to understand what you are doing here.  This sound instantly SCREAMS "Digital!"  "Electronic!" Samples!" No one on the planet would think this was anything but a digital fake.  It is also very bad to hear  the greatest march of John Phillip Sousa subjected to this treatment.  This is a piece for BAND, not strings.  It is a powerful march, one of the finest ever written, and when played well by a great concert band like the Eastman Wind Ensemble, or the U.S. Marine Band, it is beautiful.  It should not be abused in this way.    

How can you think this sounds good?  It is just awful.  It is like going back to the 1980s and hearing an early string ensemble module trying pathetically to ape strings and failing utterly.  There is a total retrogression here.   

I am not trying to make you mad, but I think you have fooled your ears by focusing too intensively on this and need to step back and listen objectively and realize just how bad this sounds.  Your other music is of such high quality I find it shocking that you think this is good.  

btw VSL - I am not attempting to cause trouble, but feel if someone has a strong reaction - which in this case was severe to me - they should say something and express honestly what they think instead of keep quiet and be nice.  That is the purpose of a Forum, even if not always pleasant.  

I'm in complete agreement with William on this, as well as the previous Nearer My God To Thee piece.  When I began my journey with VSL a few years ago, I relied on your tutorials and strategies to organize keyswitches, etc.  I very much appreciate and admire your efforts and skills, Beat, but regardless of what techniques and tools you've employed here, I fear the end result is not convincing.  Perhaps, scarier, is that if experienced and skilled users like you are not able to achieve a reasonably convincing performance, there are many that will struggle even more to work with this library.  I hope that if there's a way to make the Synchron strings "sing", VSL will entertain some educational videos (beyond the existing material on the site) that really shows the settings and techniques needed to achieve satisfactory results.

Thanks for posting this.  Regardless of the results, I know how much work goes in to it and appreciate your effort.

Dave

www.DavidCarovillano.com - NEW SITE!
www.acclarion.ca - concert accordion & clarinet duo
Posted on Sun, Jul 22 2018 02:04
by Beat Kaufmann
Joined on Fri, Jan 03 2003, Switzerland/Brugg, Posts 1726

William
Calm down and just not so seriously please. Since I've had samples, I've always played things you've never heard before. An example is the Willhel Tell with percussion - in the demos. BTW. Others have played stars and stripes as well with other "orchestrations":
https://youtu.be/1HrhZ1-cPJE
https://youtu.be/bm88Y-ocTyA

Of course you may as always have your opinion. Anyway, I had a few hours of fun and the people in the videos obviously too.

--------------------------------------------------------

Dave

Just for you:

Here is a version that comes straight from the players. Not a single effect was used just finished both in the sum channel. By the way, that's how I understand the library. Because it is recorded as in the syncstage, the user has nothing more to do.

Stars and Stripes without any effect - just out of the players

Beat

www.musik-produktion-createc.ch (Konzertaufnahmen, Musik mit Samples)
at www.beat-kaufmann.com : MIXING an ORCHESTRA - TUTORIAL
Posted on Sun, Jul 22 2018 03:05
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5512

Beat,

You don't need to tell me "calm down" - that was a very serious and "calm" reply I gave previously, so don't deflect the critique by your implication that I am not somehow "calm."   You can just respond or ignore me, fine, whatever you wish.  But don't act as if I am not "calm" because I don't instantly love everything you do.   

You have regularly ignored everything I ever posted here, except for the pieces you could sieze upon for total demolishing criticism.   I have on the other hand given you huge praise, as in your last Synchron piece re-doing what you did before with the Bach -  which you chose to ignore.

Nevertheless, though you of course treat my critique of your performance as a mental aberration (as I expected - something you are incapable of ever accepting - a critique! No, you can't be criticized, can you?! )  ----  the sound of this performance is simply grotesque and a huge musical distortion and should be withdrawn from the VSL Forum.  It is an insult to Sousa's music.  Also probably a real damper on VSL sales.  

William Kersten

www.williamkersten.com

Posted on Sun, Jul 22 2018 14:33
by Beat Kaufmann
Joined on Fri, Jan 03 2003, Switzerland/Brugg, Posts 1726

I produced a piece that you do not like at all. That's your right to say so. Typically William in those cases, your feedback was pretty emotional. I responded with "take it easy" and showed you with two video examples that other more famous people perform the piece quite differently than you might want it to have.

In your 2nd feedback, you said I should not tell you to take it easy. Furthermore, you have made me a few reproaches ... I would ignore your tips and answers ...

Now it is difficult for me. What to say? What to do? It's like a trap. As it looks, I have 3 options:

  • A) I submit to your judgment, I apologize for the demo, delete everything and promise you never to make such a demo again.
  • B) I do not apologize. I give you any answer so you do not feel ignored. No matter what I say, it will end badly:   A "word war à la William" as I  know it.
  • C) I am now leaving this forum for 5-6 weeks and enjoy life.


 ----------------------------------------------

I choose C) You will then say that I ignore you. Yes, I do, but I do not need your bad mood. Luckily, I do not have to ask you if I can take C) or not.

BTW: No matter what you write now I will not read it anymore. Save your time and produce your own and better demo.

Beat

www.musik-produktion-createc.ch (Konzertaufnahmen, Musik mit Samples)
at www.beat-kaufmann.com : MIXING an ORCHESTRA - TUTORIAL
Posted on Sun, Jul 22 2018 16:13
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5512

Sorry Beat, I got a little carried away there, don't leave on account of me.

Maybe it's because I am a Sousa fan and have always had a pet peeve about strings trying to play those marches.  I remember once being in orchestra playing a Sousa march... but never mind.  

Posted on Mon, Jul 23 2018 08:20
by fatis12_24918
Joined on Sat, Dec 16 2006, Posts 269
Originally Posted by: William Go to Quoted Post
Sorry Beat, I got a little carried away there, don't leave on account of me.
Maybe it's because I am a Sousa fan and have always had a pet peeve about strings trying to play those marches. I remember once being in orchestra playing a Sousa march... but never mind.


Hi William, in my very personal opinion you didn’t say anything so bad. Your opinion was expressed in objective and polite way, and expert and professional people may agree.

Of course it touched the ego of the receiver, and you didn’t get an appropriate answer but just an emotional reaction that as always is self-explanatory: forget it and ho ahead. 😉
Posted on Mon, Jul 23 2018 20:39
by Veola
Joined on Thu, Jun 30 2016, Posts 15

Agree with you guys, the pieces are not convincing. 

Synthetic Strings I just does not deliver what was promised. 

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