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How to improve Synchron Strings I?
Last post Fri, Aug 17 2018 by daviddln, 114 replies.
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Posted on Wed, Aug 01 2018 14:17
by Guy Bacos
Joined on Sun, Jan 16 2005, Quebec, Canada, Posts 1995

Originally Posted by: fahl5 Go to Quoted Post

Hi GuyI am impressed about your ability to really use nearly every posting you contribute here for another aggression,. or did you seriously believe that insinuateing "egotrips" of other members is what makes you to the nice guy??? Sorry its more or less another prove for the opposite.But let us stay with your courageous statement about the constructicve character of everybodies contribution:

Originally Posted by: Guy Bacos Go to Quoted Post

....not a single person in this thread has bashed VSL products, you have a wild imagination fahl5, everybody here have all brought constructive criticism and appreciation to synchron because they believe in VSL and their dedication to improving their products, and I do mean everybody.

Conctructive criticism does not mean bashing. Lean the difference.

Sorry I am such an stupid member, that I really believe Constructive criticism would ever has anything to do with concrete suggestions to improve something.

I just want to remind you some highlights of what you called "everybodxy have brought constructive criticism and appreciation"

Originally Posted by: HBen Go to Quoted Post


VSL never replies to any post that requests of improving or upgrading the content of Synchron Strings I, and people are keep trying to make demos that sounds synthy and fake to me.

...

Synchron Strings I, I would say, just forget it.



Originally Posted by: HBen Go to Quoted Post


The biggest mistake is that VSL should not launch pre-order mode for Synchron String I based on its false advertisement, and thereafter no voucher compensation for unhappy customers. I could use that money to purchase other libraries instead of buying this one. It's really a lot of money for a single string library that does not deliver many of essential contents.


Originally Posted by: JimmyHellfire Go to Quoted Post


Tbh, what stings more is not the fact that I find the library not worthy of using, but exactly that in some ways, what happened here kind of feels like a breach of trust. I always associated VSL with meticulous quality, a no-nonsense, no-shortcuts approach, innovation. I feel that SyS betrays those expectations.

So much about the library seems fibbed, band-aid, makeshift, cheapened out. ....


Originally Posted by: HBen Go to Quoted Post


Well, I'd love to hear some replies from VSL. Otherwise, this will become another edition of story about the Emperor's New Clothes, only VSL and a small portion of people think this product is good enough on the market.

It's not a good attitude to ignore customer's feedback, other companies would listen to customers and do some improvements, but it seems that is not the case here. Sad.




Originally Posted by: Pixelpoet1985 Go to Quoted Post


...The competition has introduced way more advanced features and new innovative approaches over the years. Synchron Strings still follows the same patch structure as in the older libraries, disappointing for me.

It's their first wet string library, so I only want that they admit that something went wrong or that they expected more themselves or that they keep on improving this library. I would totally understand it, because it's a new way of recording and editing and they have to gather new experiences as well.

.... But if they don't care about our feedback, sorry, but than they have to face the truth. I think they know it, I can't imagine that Synchron Strings sold well. ....



Originally Posted by: Simon Ravn Go to Quoted Post


But but... it's the results and the sound that counts. And as countless have already pointed out, Synchron Strings is off. Very off. It sounds lifeless and thin, generally speaking. There are good aspects of it; I like the clarity of it, but sadly when the tone is thin and lifeless it doesn't help much.



Originally Posted by: Veola Go to Quoted Post
I just cannot understand how people can say there is nothing wrong with this lib? Don't you compare to other libs or listen to recordings? Don't you want something new, improved or groundbreaking from a new lib?
...

Guy Bacos got some demos on the product page, BUT the ones that sound acceptable are the ones layered with other instruments. Its basically covering up the problems of the lib.

VSL told me that Synchron Strings I is the first and many more will come. So what? We have to wait for longer and spend more money to get something they promised LAST YEAR?

You guys are basically saying this lib cannot be improved by us?
Is VI-Control the best site to resell it?



Originally Posted by: Pixelpoet1985 Go to Quoted Post


Originally Posted by: Veola Go to Quoted Post
I just cannot understand how people can say there is nothing wrong with this lib? Don't you compare to other libs or listen to recordings? Don't you want something new, improved or groundbreaking from a new lib?


+1


Sorry I read many general complains and little or often no realy constructive suggestions, no real attempt at least to make the alledged problem much more precise than"And as countless have already pointed out, Synchron Strings is off. Very off. It sounds lifeless and thin," or "I just cannot understand how people can say there is nothing wrong with this lib?"

Is that how sounds everybodies "constructive criticism and appreciation to synchron because they believe in VSL "

If you really dont expect anything more than that from a constructive discussion, OK than now I have "learned" what kind of discussion you think are "constructiv"

To be honest when it comes to you I did not found neither any attempt to describe any possible problem of Synchron Strings nor any attempt to discuss any arguments brought by others about any problems or possible improvements.

Just take a look on what many of your postings here has as their very personal major topic that you criticise and than ask yourself what kind of "trip" would you call that.

 

I rest my case.

Posted on Thu, Aug 02 2018 00:37
by mschmitt
Joined on Mon, Jan 01 2007, Posts 154

For those who have missed this thread request to be able to Mute/Hide members in the forums you may want to show your support or +1 it.

Michael

Full Cube and lots of other stuff
Posted on Thu, Aug 02 2018 01:02
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5704

Jimmy,

btw I think your post on Synchron Strings is the single best I've seen in both concept, thoughtfulness and writing style (which seems always to be neglected in internet posts).  It is no small thing, and in fact a pleasure, to read someone who can use language.  Someone who can form a sentence, actually an exceptionally intelligent sentence. 

Posted on Thu, Aug 02 2018 06:47
by JimmyHellfire
Joined on Tue, Dec 24 2013, Posts 335

Much appreciated, William. I try to hopefully not just ramble, and sometimes succeed.

Posted on Wed, Aug 08 2018 01:55
by muziksculp
Joined on Fri, Oct 03 2003, U.S.A., Posts 448

IMHO. VSL Synchron Strings I has great sounding Short articulations, and that's where my praise for it stops.

Non of the sustains, Legatos, long articulations, vibrato patches, are up to my expectations, I won't bother using them. 

I also don't like the Tree-Structure design of of the Synchron Player, I find it confusing to choose articulations, via multipl key-switches, diving further into the tree structure, doesn't feel like an improvement compared to the Matrix System of VI-Pro 2. 

Maybe VSL can improve Synchron Strings I, (although I doubt they will), the new Synchron Player is another big step backwards instead of forward. 

The total silence, and lack of communication from VSL about this is not a wise strategy, although I think VSL think it is. (Sad). 

I gave up on VSL Synchron Strings I, but will still use its short articulations. I have many other options to choose from, i.e. VSL's VI-Pro 2 based libraries (which I own quite a number of), and from other developers. 

Posted on Sat, Aug 11 2018 02:09
by saxmand
Joined on Wed, May 06 2009, Posts 62

Originally Posted by: Veola Go to Quoted Post
I just cannot understand how people can say there is nothing wrong with this lib? Don't you compare to other libs or listen to recordings? Don't you want something new, improved or groundbreaking from a new lib?

+1 

Posted on Mon, Aug 13 2018 10:27
by jasensmith
Joined on Tue, Jan 15 2008, Arizona, Posts 1582

Well, this is certainly a fascinating thread to say the least. 

It's clear that this thread will be forever referenced by future PHD candidates in Sociology and Human Behavioral Studies

But after spending two or three days reading through this entire 6 page thread I think the essence of it can be distilled to just two posts not including the original post.

The first would be Jimmie Hellfire's first post.  Although it is a pretty scathing critique of VSL's SyS project it isn't just random baseless bashing and bitching which we've become accustomed to here on the forum.  No, Jimmie has laid out a pretty convincing case, based upon his honest opinion, that doesn't disrespect VSL but is more along the lines of "tough love."

The second post, and more or less a rebutal to Jimmie's post, is Guy Bacos' "Bee" demo because you hear the library at its best and can make your own decision.  By the way, a really nice piece Guy and I agree with William I didn't hear any of the negative aspects of that piece with regards to "machine gun effect" etc.

And that's pretty much it.  It's kind of ashamed that you have to wade through 6 pages of bitter acrimony in order to get to the heart of the matter but such is life here on the big VSL Community Comedy Cavalcade   

I'm not sure how to respond to the Synchron effort.  I guess VSL figured that you can't just make a library with baked in reverb because it's been done before by just about everybody else and it would be looking backwards while VSL is a forward looking company.  So they created this Synchron library and it is what it is at present time but VSL does read these "recommendations" and takes them seriously.  As for them not replying, well I don't think I would reply either because then you're obligated to reply to every single "recommendation" and "I DEMAND AN ANSWER" from every frustrated user who posts about anything not just Synchron.  

Again, a very fascinating thread


"If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then quit. There's no point in being a damn fool about it."
- W.C. Fields
Posted on Mon, Aug 13 2018 16:28
by muziksculp
Joined on Fri, Oct 03 2003, U.S.A., Posts 448

Originally Posted by: jasensmith Go to Quoted Post

Well, this is certainly a fascinating thread to say the least. 

It's clear that this thread will be forever referenced by future PHD candidates in Sociology and Human Behavioral Studies

But after spending two or three days reading through this entire 6 page thread I think the essence of it can be distilled to just two posts not including the original post.

The first would be Jimmie Hellfire's first post.  Although it is a pretty scathing critique of VSL's SyS project it isn't just random baseless bashing and bitching which we've become accustomed to here on the forum.  No, Jimmie has laid out a pretty convincing case, based upon his honest opinion, that doesn't disrespect VSL but is more along the lines of "tough love."

The second post, and more or less a rebutal to Jimmie's post, is Guy Bacos' "Bee" demo because you hear the library at its best and can make your own decision.  By the way, a really nice piece Guy and I agree with William I didn't hear any of the negative aspects of that piece with regards to "machine gun effect" etc.

And that's pretty much it.  It's kind of ashamed that you have to wade through 6 pages of bitter acrimony in order to get to the heart of the matter but such is life here on the big VSL Community Comedy Cavalcade   

I'm not sure how to respond to the Synchron effort.  I guess VSL figured that you can't just make a library with baked in reverb because it's been done before by just about everybody else and it would be looking backwards while VSL is a forward looking company.  So they created this Synchron library and it is what it is at present time but VSL does read these "recommendations" and takes them seriously.  As for them not replying, well I don't think I would reply either because then you're obligated to reply to every single "recommendation" and "I DEMAND AN ANSWER" from every frustrated user who posts about anything not just Synchron.  

Again, a very fascinating thread

So.. What's your opinion about VSL Synchron Strings I.  Are you using them a lot, and are very happy with the results ?  

Posted on Mon, Aug 13 2018 23:03
by jasensmith
Joined on Tue, Jan 15 2008, Arizona, Posts 1582
I am not using Synchron Strings as of yet as I usually wait 6 months to a year before investing in software products unless it's just a library nothing more. In this case, there's a player associated with it which means software and bugs and hiccups etc. I like to wait until they iron all that stuff out.

But to be honest, I'm attached to the dry libraries and they have always been the becon that has brought me home to VSL time and again. I just like the flexibility of creating my own sonic environments. But that doesn't mean that I'll NEVER be interested in Synchron.

"If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then quit. There's no point in being a damn fool about it."
- W.C. Fields
Posted on Mon, Aug 13 2018 23:06
by muziksculp
Joined on Fri, Oct 03 2003, U.S.A., Posts 448

Originally Posted by: jasensmith Go to Quoted Post
I am not using Synchron Strings as of yet as I usually wait 6 months to a year before investing in software products unless it's just a library nothing more. In this case, there's a player associated with it which means software and bugs and hiccups etc. I like to wait until they iron all that stuff out.

But to be honest, I'm attached to the dry libraries and they have always been the becon that has brought me home to VSL time and again. I just like the flexibility of creating my own sonic environments. But that doesn't mean that I'll NEVER beinterested in Synchron.

You are very wise not to rush into getting Synchron Strings I,  I surely don't recommend it at this point. Unless VSL improves it, by re-developing most of it again, especially the long articulations, Synchron Player has not improved workflow for me either, maybe they will improve it, but I doubt it.    

Posted on Wed, Aug 15 2018 22:57
by Eptesicus
Joined on Wed, Oct 16 2013, Posts 33

Originally Posted by: JimmyHellfire Go to Quoted Post

Well, I think sometimes things just don't really pan out. That's life.

I had high hopes for this library and was one of those who pre-ordered. The thing is that I usually never pre-order stuff and never have. The only exception to this rule was SyS, because based on previous experiences, VSL was the one company I kind of trusted blindly - turns out that one time exception came back to bite me like a mofo. It's my fault, and it's not the end of the world. but there you go.

Tbh, what stings more is not the fact that I find the library not worthy of using, but exactly that in some ways, what happened here kind of feels like a breach of trust. I always associated VSL with meticulous quality, a no-nonsense, no-shortcuts approach, innovation. I feel that SyS betrays those expectations.

So much about the library seems fibbed, band-aid, makeshift, cheapened out. The omission of standard articulations, the fake patches, the tacked-on transitions ... actually I even feel there was even some blatant false advertising. For example: the articulation list always stated "marcato", whereas there is literally no marcato in this library. Not even a "fake" stacked patch, like the sfz. The only "marcato" thing in SyS is a dimension preset where a long note is being stacked with a short one - something you could do yourself any time.

This is just completely the opposite of what I've come to expect from VSL. Their products always reflected that they were willing to go the extra mile - this one on the other hand makes it obvious that they were trying to cut corners and skimp their way around as many things as possible.

Or maybe they just made a bunch of wrong decisions. I'm sure they worked like crazy on this thing. But to me it seems that the effort was spent in the wrong areas. For example, I believe much was expected to come out of the many dynamic layers, which to me totally backfired, because the benefit is almost inaudible/nonexistent. It only makes the patches even more fiddly and difficult to use and blew up the library to an absurd size, whereas those gigs would have been way wiser spent on more articulations and more variants of true recorded dynamic performances.

Not sure the many mic positions are really needed either. 3-5, each with a clear purpose and distinct sound, would have been enough.

I believe that it would probably be better to record legato samples as a whole - without transition samples crossfading into standard sustains. I'm not an expert on this, but it seems that some other developers took this approach and it sounds way more real.

The tone is kind of brittle and overly sharp with some odd biting resonance you can't really get rid of. The basses are great and the violas are really nice too, but the celli do have this problem and the violins are just incredibly weird - screechy, but flat, lifeless ... can't even describe it.

I also feel that nobody needs two different vibrato intensities you can't even crossfade through coming from novib, when even the strong vibrato actually hardly produces any emotive vibrato. I'm sure that most people would end up not using the normal vibrato at all, while still struggling with getting some kind of passionate movement out of the lyrical one.

I've been trying to mock up some stuff originally done with other libraries and it just doesn't come out right. To me it just doesn't work. The violins are the weirdest. The tone is odd, the legato hurts inside and the results just don't really sound musical. Fiddling with it is hard work, but you end up just having to admit: the other version you already had just sounds more beautiful and real.

I can already see the buffoon comments stating that it's my fault because apparently I was too stupid to "master" this woe-ridden product or didn't have the necessary rigor, but even if that were true: why should I? It's just not worth it. What's the point, when there's already stuff available that produces better results with less painstaking effort?

There's parts of the library that are great soundwise, but ultimately, there's just to many problems. I gave up on it and finally deleted it from my drive. I don't really think that things could be improved here. It would be so much of an overhaul, they could almost just as well make a new library. It's a shame. I'd sell it, but honestly, I'm not sure who's supposed to buy this thing off of me.

The whole "synchron-ized chamber strings" thing also kind of strikes me as a band-aid solution and a cash-in with leftovers, and I'm not sure that's a philosophy I'm willing to support. I just hope that VSL carefully reassesses when it comes to the rest of the Synchron line. I do really like the percussion. Maybe things can turn out different for winds and brass.

I'm not trying to bash anyone either. Sometimes you put a lot into something and it just doesn't work out, and that's tough to deal with. I think it's a shame that VSL is facing all this backlash, as I'm sure they were incredibly busy and hard at work making this library.

I don't know what went wrong. Perhaps the concept sounded great on paper but didn't fly in practice. Perhaps cost-cutting measures because the stage cost them tons of money. Or maybe the library actually is exactly what they wanted and believed in, but turns out that the expectations of the users were misjudged and the market isn't embracing it at all. I really do wish them all the best with the next product and that they successfully bounce back from this setback.

 

Very well said.

What i find the most perplexing is VSL's reluctance to admit they got it wrong. This library has been met with almost universal criticism yet they seem to think that silence and doing nothing is the best way to go about it?

The library is a failure, and was, like you said, pretty much falsely advertised.

I can't see them selling many copies of this now so unless they made a decent amount from us mugs who pre ordered it based on false promises of this being the next generation in string libraries , so what is the point in it?

It also undermines their entire Synchron orchestra range in its current state, which will only serve to hurt sales for the rest of the instruments when released.

Would VSL care to comment on all this and do they have any plans on re-working or re-recording the library?

Posted on Thu, Aug 16 2018 11:12
by Dominique
Joined on Fri, Aug 08 2008, Posts 179

Completely agree with Jimmy's assessment. In my opinion Synchron Strings I is a complete departure from principles that have made VSL so strong. And I am not talking about the dry recording philosophy here. I am talking about the depth at which articulations have been sampled, the meticulous programming, the refusal to take short-cuts etc. All of which are not present in Synchron Strings I anymore. In my opinion they focused on things that didn't pay off: an oversupply of mic positions, vibrato styles (which are all pretty similar), legato transitions (which don't sound natural to my ears and still don't include portamento though...) and dynamic layers. They bloat the size of the library with very little audible benefits. At the same time it made it impossible to include more articulations without heaving the library size into the terrabites. I had very high hopes for an ambient strings library from VSL exactly because of the principles outlined above. Unfortunately I can't find them to be present in Synchron Strings I.

The 'Synchronizing' of the Chamber Strings - something I expect to be but the first step in 'synchronizing' their VI libraries - is a concept that I find unconvincing as well. What is supposed to be the advantage of trading a lot of articulations against a baked in artificial ambiance? An ambiance that you could apply with MIR, or any other quality reverb programm, much more flexibly and to your own liking. It seems to devalue the MIR concept too, because apparently VSL is of the opinion that adding the Synchron Stage roompack to their VI libraries doesn't do it if you want to blend them with their Synchron libraries. Instead they want you to buy another product. But in that case, what does MIR with the Synchron Stage roompack actually do in VSL's opinion? Odd.

I wish the company the best, and I hope they can attract new customers with their synchron lineup who weren't interested in dry libraries. I myself have lost interest in any of their Synchron projects, be it Synchron libraries, the 'synchronizing' of VI libraries, or the stage itself. Instead I'll be using their 'old' VI libraries happily.

Posted on Thu, Aug 16 2018 16:20
by kamil
Joined on Mon, Feb 23 2015, Posts 23
I am still insist that synchron string is step backwards. They killed there products like Mir and they make it too limited comparing with VI.
Posted on Fri, Aug 17 2018 11:56
by daviddln
Joined on Tue, Feb 25 2014, Posts 232

I like the library. The only things I miss are harmonics and portamento articulations.

iMac 21.5, i7 4770S, 3,1 Ghz, 16 GB RAM
Komplete Kontrol S-88, Focusrite Clarett 4Pre
Logic Pro X, Finale 26
6 Pages«<456
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