Originally Posted by: littlewierdo

First, holy smokes, did you wake up on the wrong side of the bed? Damn, and I thought I was the cranky one...

I slept and woke up pretty well ;-) No one is the "cranky" one and I fear this question even does not contribute anything reasonable here.

I understand, that you like VI (we consent it is an amazing Orchestra Sample Player) and you are not so familiar with the Synchron Player so far. (Good things need their time.... the more occasion you will have the more questions will be answered).

@ "humanization"

Yes this is a great feature, but since we do have currently only section-Libraries available in Synchron-Format I personally believe that you can't apply in any realistic way humanisation variants to the recording of a whole section since I fear it would not appear that "human" if all players of one section do have exactly the same abberation, because what if ever makes a section sound more humanized would be the fact, that those abberations are different for each single player (as the Dimension Strings which introduced that feature are able to). I might be wrong but I fear this could be the reason why VSL currently doesn't provide that functionality in the Synchron-Player.

Originally Posted by: littlewierdo

I might be wrong here, Im not as familar with Synchron, but what I like about VI is the provided templates and matrices. I can load up a flute ensemble matrix and all my articulations are there.

If I understand your right, I think your point might be an inspiring feature request for the VSL-developers.

Currently we do have either Factory "Presets" or "Patches" in VI the "Matrices" have been indeed something between. If they would ever tried anything "between" single Patch and complete Preset it would be kind of "Subtrees" I think I understand why they currently did not programmed Subtree-presets, since the variety of possible subtrees is that large, but still you might be right, that to have kind of buildingblocks for own custom Presets might help to make some things easier to set up,

Originally Posted by: littlewierdo

....but what I cant seem to figure out how to do is remove articulations I rarely use.

1) Left Click in the slot (or subtree): "delete"

2) only enable those patches you need and leave other disabled.

Originally Posted by: littlewierdo

While Vienna's choirs sound great, they lack many of the features found in other more modern choir libraries (I am SO in love with 8dio's silka and insolidus choir libraries).

Yes I consent. The sound of vienna choir and voices is incredible good, but they definitly need to be brought on the current technical level to have a better text-simulation than just two sets of Syllables with "Ah" and "Uh". If ever they would provide better textsimulation their choir will likewise beat everything else as their Orchestra already do.

Originally Posted by: littlewierdo

Sure, they dont have all the articulations other libraries have, but they have the 99% that are necessary, and they have the UI to match.

You might be right if you are talking about the just started Synchron Series I am sure they will be completed. If you would talk about the complete VSL program, I fear there is by far nothing with any comparable variety of articulations.

And yes I think the result of this thread has already be consented by others here: VI is great and Synchron is going to be even greater. And I am sure the more constructive and the more concrete the suggestions of the users here are the more they will help VSL to make Synchron exactly what the Users need it to be.

Originally Posted by: LAJ

@choir ... something is coming ... The one who is Spitfire Customer received an email 2 or 3 days ago which leads to a YouTube video. It IS a choir which will be out soon and a gamechanger I heard from Mister X. WOW! ...

( It seems as if you have spoken to someone from the marketing-department oif Spitrfire ;-) )

I personally expect not that much more than esoreric pad-sounds from Spitfire (after all you can swell every sound to simulate that kind of "feeling"). What I have heard from the first teaser at least doesn't sound much like a anything what might be for the wordbuilding game really changing anything.....

Perhaps if Audiobro will provide once upon a time more than their Children-Choir it might become interesteing, Nevertheless I would still prefer to have the Vienna voices with textsimulation.

Hi littlewierdo

Sorry I fear I could not really understand what or whom exactly you are answering (especially Point 4 but that seems not that important for the main subjkect of this topic). So I try to answer some of your points.

I also do not really understand, what the decision to use VSL as additional or Main orchestral Library have to do with the Player one uses. I personally use currently the Synchron-Libraries as my main Core-Libraries adding VI-Libraries where ever it is necessary. But we all know and no one will ever dispute that  everyone will develop his very personal setup and workflow.  But that will of course be no reason for any developer to stop any development.

Concerning the humanization-discussion: It was just my humble assumption, why VSL doesn't provide any humanization-feature yet. I may be wrong but to me it still seem to be a convincing argument, that a single aberration aplied simultaneously exactly in the same way to a whole section, might be not what this feature originally way made for. Perhaps anyone of VSL could help to make this point more clear for us all, if I am wrong.

However, I think there is no need for any concerns, that VI will disapear that soon. No one is kept from buying and using the large variety of good Libraries in VI-Format. But you are right, the Synchron-Series does not yet seem to be complete, so it would not surprise me, if the next releases to come will be likewise Synchron-Releases. And I believe a constructive and concrete discussion about what users like to see in their Sample-Player will help VSL to bring their Users what they are looking for. As I am sure the Synchron-Player will have still be develoiped further to satisfy most of the possible Users in their needs.

In any way keep positive I think there is more than enough reason for

Originally Posted by: littlewierdo

Now read point 4 again.

I still cant see neither relation to the subject, nor any real problem to solve. So I think we can just drop it.

Originally Posted by: littlewierdo

This conversation isnt about Synchron and whether it should be used or not. The incomplete libraries and feature differences will be filled out. The conversation is about users who prefer VI over Synchron for many reasons, many of which have been listed, and the many users who want Vienna to continue to develop both product lines, not just Synchron, as they have done the past year.

However I am sure you allow that different users have different opinions about their preference  for what ever Player-concept and I am sure you allow that different opinions might contribute to a discussion here.

Originally Posted by: littlewierdo

I have mentioned before, but its worth stating again, when the UI gets in the way of my producing, for whatever reason, even if it is my own hangups, it doesnt matter how good a sound library is. Such is the case with Synchron. Both VI and Synchron could be at parody, that is, both having complete libraries and the same feature set, and the UI in Synchron just doesnt work for me. Nothing will change that except perhaps using Synchron more to get used to it... which leads me to another point...

I understand and consent, that it will of course take it's time to get used to work with a new concept. I personally just believe that the power of the new concept is worth to spend this time and learning. At least this is my opinion about the subject of this thread, which is of course not meant to offend you in any way. But I am convinced from my intensiv expierience to work with both players in many projects, that the synchron-concept is a major step ahead in the right direction for further development. But I dont think you should fear that exsiting VI-Libraries would lose their already impressive quality only because Synchron-Libraries are still able to allow more than we have already had in VI.

Originally Posted by: littlewierdo

Being that the sound libraries are completely seperate doesnt really help me use Synchron more. All of the products offered for Synchron, with exception to the orchestra one they just released (and I purchased) are all out of my price range, which also doesnt help. Personally, I dont understand the difference between the two, other than, one has a terrible UI with missing functionality and lacking libraries (which I understand will be eventuallly added) and the other (VI) has all the features and libraries for my taste.

Also a bit confusing, given the above, I already have the Special Edition libraries, I dont understand why I am paying $100 for those libraries to be synchro'd, other than some of the effects are really nice (the only reason I paid for the recent orchestra thingy they just released).

I think that the major reason to introduce the synchron-concept is not the transformation of exsiting libraries into synchronized ones (meanwhile that would imho make many things easier for instance for the Dimension-Series). The main reason as I understood are even much more detailed, mach nore powerfull Libraries, than those we already have in VI-Format, as the Synchron-Strings I or Synchron Percussion I provide already in their first Volumes so incredible much more than the corresponding VI Libraries (Orchestryl Strings I, and Orchestral Percussions.

In so far I personally understand, why VSL does not stick with an old concept but introduce a more powerful and more focussed one to make it possible to musically reasonably handle much more of important details of the sound. But you are right this is at the same time a challenge for the user to explore and learn the new power and adapt it to his own workflow.

At least I am glad that you found with the smart orchestra a product suitable for your needs and already found out some feature which are inspiring for you. However the fact the the development of Synchron-Series is just starting to be released, while the development of VI has already come to a point which does not allow in essential aspects as much improvement as the new concept makes me (even if I apreciate the existing libraries as we all do here) just arguing for staying open minded for the new to come,

It was just my humble assumption (no "statement" as you put it), since as far as I know the "humanization"-Feature was introduced with the Dimensions-Serie where recordings of the single players of an ensemble constitute the sound ot the whole ensemble and in this context it seems to me at least from its Idea most plausible, since the small detuned abberations of the humanization-feature makes (as far as I understood) sens as far they provide that always changing small detune-effecxts you hear only you in the ensemble which is playing the same note but for small individual intonation-differences produce those phaseshifting effects we associate with orchestral section-sounds.

For solo-instruments there is as I understand it no reason to produce those differences since the natural human attack is already recorded with the violinist who plays the tones who makes our patches. The problems only began if you double this soloist and get exactly the same human abberations twice when you let play the same note with the same patch simultaneaously, which would not produce the wanted ensemble phaseshift As far as I understood the traditional way to avoid any machine-effects for single instruments is round robin. So even if the smart orchestra includes Solo-patches, it still does not include dimension-series-instruments and does not have that much need for dimension-series features.

Nevertheless I would wellcome to have the dimension strings in Synchron-Player and if they would ever do so, I expect they will also introduce the humanisation-feature to. But that is of course all just my personal guess and only one point of view among others which one might contribute to this discussion here.

And I am sure the people of VSL are much more able to give you the reason, why neither the percussion, nor the piano, the section-strings  nor the smart-orchestra seemed to make it necessary for them to introduce this feature. I at least strongly believe, that if they would have had any good reason to do so, they would have done already. But if you think they dont, feel free to 'teach' them what you think you know better than the VSL-Developpers.

Originally Posted by: fatis12_24918

Originally Posted by: fahl5

 But if you think they dont, feel free to 'teach' them what you think you know better than the VSL-Developpers.

This is actually what you constantly did, not me. Actually you do it in this case also, since they implemented the feature in VI, and so according your expert advice, they had not to do it. 

Of course I do not constantly "teach" anyone just by contributing my point of view. And thus to give my personal assumption and some arguments for why VSL did not yet implement this feature is likewise defenitly not to "teach" anyone nor meant to do so. It is just my humble contribution to this discussion to help to understand the simple and pure fact, that there is no humanization feature in Synchron yet..

Originally Posted by: fatis12_24918

Quote from VI Pro Manual:

"The Humanize Area creates something wonderful: Human Imperfection. From subtle changes in intonation to simulating stressinduced tuning corrections and slightly un-tight rhythmic passages: Random patterns produce authenticity, be it in the string, woodwind or brass section. Additionally to these fixed variations, you can influence the intensity of the tuning curves and delay settings to create an even more random effect with real-time controllers."

And what exactly do you want to teach us with that quotation ?

Originally Posted by: fatis12_24918

On the other side, if you are the only one with a different opinion from several other people, probably there is a reason... find your favorite one, respectfully if you can.

Since the decision what feature should be included is not mine you should say that to the VSL-Developpers.

However in a discussion since everybody just talks for himself, no one is ever more or less "the only one" as no one in a rormal discussion need, could and should ever pretend to talk for anyone else but for himself. In short: you have your Ideas I do have mine. I respect yours so I can't see any rational reason why you should not be able to respect mine.

So please try finally to keep this discussion being concentrated on the subject and prevent it to become personal again.

Originally Posted by: fatis12_24918

Originally Posted by: fahl5

Originally Posted by: fatis12_24918

Quote from VI Pro Manual:

"The Humanize Area creates something wonderful: Human Imperfection. From subtle changes in intonation to simulating stressinduced tuning corrections and slightly un-tight rhythmic passages: Random patterns produce authenticity, be it in the string, woodwind or brass section. Additionally to these fixed variations, you can influence the intensity of the tuning curves and delay settings to create an even more random effect with real-time controllers."

And what exactly do you want to teach us with that quotation ?

Well, again it's not me teaching anything. It's the VSL team writing the manual. They teach us what's humanization for. I don't see in this paragraph any restriction to the Dimension string solo players only, that was your personal interpretation, not VSL intention.  Of course Dimension Strings is the perfect application of it, but it's not the only one for so obvious reason we already explained: just use good sense and creativity and you will (maybe) understand.

I still cant see in your quotation any statement by the VSL about the synchron player and the certain needs of the currently in Synchron Format available Libraries.

I also realy dont understand why you are introducing the term "restriction" here in this discussion about VI and Synchron-Player?

What means to sum up: Sorry but I cant still figure out what exactly you want to teach us or the VSL or who ever, but please dont care that much about, since I still believe what ever it might be it will scarcly change my or any ones appreciation for the great VI-Products or curiosity for the Synchron-Products to come.

And what counts after all in my humble opinion is still to make the best use of it, as good each of us migth ever be able to.  .

Originally Posted by: William

As Fatis mentioned, humanization settings existed long before Dimension Strings.  They are very valuable for all the VI instruments.  

Sorry I fear William it was defenitly not that "long before":

VI Pro which as far as I know braught the humanisation feature for the first time was exactly launched in the same year (2011) with the first Dimension library ther (Dimension Brass 2011). To me that still seems to be a feature introduced for the Dimension series to wich it fits most.

That means the humanizuation feature was introduced litarally 'long time after' ( = up to 8 Years) the First Edition of Orchestral strings have been released in 2003, the Chamber Strings 2005

And as VSL often enough affirmed. Dimension Series and Synchron Series are two very different Product-lines based on two very different Concepts. Of course more able to complement each other than meant to replace another (which is of course another fact what should calm down any fears the VI would be abandoned that soon)

It is great if you like this feature as I do, but for me at least it still seems a bit strange to believe if a section (no matter wether of 6, 14 or 20 Strings) would have all absolutly simultaneously absolutly identic intonation aberations would make their sound more "realistic".

However that is just my humble opinion. I am sure if the VSL developpers would think like you and fatis, they would'nt hesitated a second to provide this function for the section-Libraries which are currently available. While to me it seems as if the current Releases of original Synchron-Format Libraries are more meant to replace the up to 15 years old First-Edition Orchestral-Cube libraries, which as you know are from 2003 + 2005 (and of course  not introduced with any humanization feature - which was introduced as far I can see not before 2011 with the first Dimension Library).

But perhaps Fatis must just "teach" them a bit more insistently and as soon they have learned Fatis lesson you will get your simultanous section intonation-aberations of which you believe it would contribute to the realism you are looking for and everybody is happy.

Originally Posted by: littlewierdo

As I was thinking about this more this weekend, I think its fair to consider something else. Having dual engines with seperate libraries is somewhat disappointing. I think it might be interesting if the libraries were usable in either Synchron or VI, provided Synchron is at parody with VI feature wise. Then, this whole conversation becomes moot. Buy the library, use it with the UI you prefer.

The fundamental development-step done by the Synchron-Series is so much more than the UI. I fear you miss a bit the fundamental difference between Silentstage and Synchron-Stage Recording-Setup as between the 2(-3) dimensional Matrix-Concept and the multidimensional x-fade-able Treestructure-concept. I can imagine, that its benefit might be not that obvious as far one is working with a comparable small amount of patches. But you should consider, that not all VSL-Users stay with the smart-orchestra. For those who use the full Power of the large variety of different patches VSL is know for, this concept makes fundamental aspects of working with orchestral-samples (at least in my humble expierience from working wioth both in many projects) at the same time much more verseatile as musical much more reasonable focussed on the important decisions.

Originally Posted by: littlewierdo

Personally, I never understood why companies dont produce a UI designer for users to create a UI that works for them and make those UI's available pubclicly should they choose.

I understand that the UI seems to be your major concern. Did you already checked all possibilities to customize as well the design as the organisation of the patches and the Midi-controle. I at least do have the impression, that the options for the User to design the Player and the way it's Patches and functions are organized are even much more costomizable than they have been befor in VI.

Originally Posted by: littlewierdo

In all honesty, it has been shown time and time again that the community will produce a better product given the tools than a small team of engineers.

This is funny to read for me since this Player actually realises  in some fundamental aspects nearly exactly what Users have suggested befor in this forum some years ago. That is the reason why I think this discussion is still pretty important, because it might help the VSL-Developpers to reflect on the User-Feedback and thus wil help to make VSL-Products even more to what the Users want.