Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

Forum Jump  
Combining different sound libraries. Good or bad?
Last post Wed, May 25 2005 by Areglator, 20 replies.
Options
Go to last post
Posted on Thu, May 19 2005 02:15
by Caruso
Joined on Thu, May 19 2005, Posts 4
Hello,

I'd like to know if it's a good idea to combine sound libraries such as VSL and Miroslav? Are they compatible in sound? Are there precautions to take?

Thanks

Guy Smile
Posted on Thu, May 19 2005 16:43
by dunk187
Joined on Mon, Oct 04 2004, SF Bay Area, Posts 164
Hi Caruso,

I do it all the time to achieve the mix I'm looking for. Trust your ears and music, not the mechanics and you wont go wrong. You'll be amazed at what you can get away with at this level.

-Ben
Posted on Thu, May 19 2005 19:37
by SyQuEsT
Joined on Mon, Jan 13 2003, Quebec, Posts 617
I use Miroslav with VSL for my virtual concert band. Solo VSL Clarinet and Clarinet Ensemble Miroslav ... same thing with Flutes ... it sounds very well for my ears.
Mathieu Laprise
Sonomax inc.
Posted on Thu, May 19 2005 20:14
by Caruso
Joined on Thu, May 19 2005, Posts 4
Ok thanks guys! That reassures me. I was concern if there might be a big acoustic difference or one library sounds more present then the other, things like that.

Caruso
Posted on Thu, May 19 2005 21:25
by plowman
Joined on Sat, Dec 13 2003, Posts 1099
Ditto to all. I'm sometimes embarassed by how it all flows together. I'm even still using some of the old Roland libraries through a K2500.

I find that old libraries still have value for "moments." I can't bear them for legato playing (perf-leg has ruined them forever). Repetitions can't be tolerated (thanks to alternating and perf-rep instruments). But for the occasional splash of color, a muted sfz brass or the chunk of a downstroke cello staccato, it's shameful what I'm still using. The numbers don't add up, but like Dunk187 and SyQuEst said, my ears buy it.

What's more, I'm really not EQ'ing or scrambling for different reverbs.

Sometimes I think there's a psycho-acoustic vocabulary that kicks in. The brain prefers to accept the timbres because it's heard them so often. Listening for differences is like focusing on a person's accent instead of what he's saying. And most of the libraries today are "fluent in orchestra," so there's not much of an accent. Differences, yes. Emphases, yes. But the brain seems to weave it all together without much effort.

It's like the soul wants to hear the music, not the parsing of its components.
Posted on Thu, May 19 2005 21:47
by dunk187
Joined on Mon, Oct 04 2004, SF Bay Area, Posts 164
Plow,

Wow, you're comment about psycho acoustics was deep. I couldn't have explained it better myself.

-Ben
Posted on Fri, May 20 2005 03:19
by plowman
Joined on Sat, Dec 13 2003, Posts 1099
Thanks, Ben! I hope I'm deep, because I know I'm narrow!
Posted on Fri, May 20 2005 05:47
by Caruso
Joined on Thu, May 19 2005, Posts 4
Plowman,

I like your analysis of the human ear. I'm often victim of focusing much too long on small details (ex. searching for an ideal vibrato...), at the end all you could hear is the vibrato which you think is horrible, and it is probably okay but your focus is way too shifted at that point and you cannot be objective about it anymore. Well I appreciate it, thanks.

Caruso
Posted on Fri, May 20 2005 14:10
by Rob Elliott
Joined on Sun, Feb 02 2003, Salt Lake City, UT, Posts 1654
Ears are the key. I still use my Roland JV 1080 strings with VSL (for lower string pad types of cues). The JV gives is smoothness and the VSL on top helps make the sound more 'professional'.

FYI.

Rob
what would you attempt to do if you knew you could not fail?
Posted on Fri, May 20 2005 16:07
by JacKuLL
Joined on Sun, May 15 2005, Posts 9
what about combi of Siedlacek & VSL, does it sound ok in mix, anybody using it? i've heard from a friend that Siedlacek library specially string has some tuning issues in combi with other library like miroslav. I'm just wondering if i can still use it coz i'm planning to get the VSL library & still be able to use & combine with Siedlacek..
thanks,
jacKuLL
Posted on Fri, May 20 2005 16:21
by Nick Batzdorf
Joined on Tue, Apr 29 2003, Los Angeles, Posts 2546
This is why I find it funny when people shriek about how VSL doesn't have, I dunno, strohviols or something. There are lots of other people working really hard to produce great libs too!

Another point: the ear is easily capable of accepting multiple ambiences on recordings without thinking twice. You hear it on every pop record - the snare is in a totally different space from the lead vocal, which is separate from the bg vox, the bass and guitars only have a little room tone, etc. etc. etc.

That argument is a little different when you're talking about orchestra, but the truth is that you can add, say, a timp boom boom from EWQLSO and it sounds great with VSL.

...he says, not having heard how MIR will change all this.
Mac Pro 5,1 12-core 3.46 GHz, 64MB RAM, latest macOS available. Metric Halo 2882 interface.

VisionDAW Windows 7 Pro i7 950 3.07 4-core, 24GB RAM. Has an RME Hammerfall HDSP9632, but I just use VE Pro. Also several ancient P4 XP slaves, rarely used.
Posted on Fri, May 20 2005 22:54
by gugliel
Joined on Wed, Aug 25 2004, Posts 383
I too like Plowman's deep comment!

I also generally like mixing libraries, because the time that it takes makes me dwell on individual sounds and lines, and that helps the music, not just the recording mock-up.

Regarding combining Seidleczek AO with VSL, yes, there are definite tuning differences (between VSL and the original package). Now they claim pitch has been corrected, with the version for sale now, so that should be improved. But with care and lots of time even the old library can be corrected, and its timbre matches pretty well in general. It also has many of the less common sounds -- went looking for a flute fluttertongue recently, and AO had it.
Musical examples at www.soundclick.com/guglielmo
Posted on Fri, May 20 2005 22:55
by plowman
Joined on Sat, Dec 13 2003, Posts 1099
JacKull, wish I could weigh in, but I've never used that library. Mercifully, with Roland, Kurzweil, Vitous, Garritan, Project SAM and VSL, tuning has never been an issue.

Nick, do you ever put only a room reverb on a VSL instrument in an orchestral mix?

I'm tempted infrequently to do it for clarity's sake. But logic tells me that no orchestral recording has secreted away one instrumentalist in a small room. Moreover, VSL was recorded uniformly, in the same space.

I'm also afraid this kind of a trick is a cover for bad orchestration. That is, if a flute line isn't coming through after a reasonable amount of tweaking, putting a room reverb on it (while the rest of the orchestra is dripping in a large hall) is not an organic solution. Yes, in the end we trust our ears, but there is such a thing as a sonic band-aid. We may solve a short-term recording issue, and our ears approve. But as an orchestrator, I might have missed an opportunity to learn.

I think I have a purist assumption that, if I'm scoring correctly, the room should pretty much stay the same. And that would seem to be particularly true of VSL. But I might be wrong.

Anyway, I value your feedback.
Posted on Fri, May 20 2005 23:30
by Caruso
Joined on Thu, May 19 2005, Posts 4
Speaking of acoustics, I find that it is still a major weakness in the VSL, I wish the instruments were recorded in a good acoustic concert hall and surrounded by all the other instruments for natural resonances. Even with the fanciest effects, reverb and all, it still doesn't feel as if the instrument is in a natural environment. I understand that for smaller ensemble you would need a different acoustic and that would imply recording several types of acoustics so it's probably easier to do this way: one totally dry sound and you do what you want with it. Practical yes, but to my ears not satisfactory.

Caruso
Posted on Sat, May 21 2005 00:36
by cmpsr2000
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Birmingham, AL, Posts 369
Caruso wrote:
Speaking of acoustics, I find that it is still a major weakness in the VSL, I wish the instruments were recorded in a good acoustic concert hall and surrounded by all the other instruments for natural resonances. Even with the fanciest effects, reverb and all, it still doesn't feel as if the instrument is in a natural environment. I understand that for smaller ensemble you would need a different acoustic and that would imply recording several types of acoustics so it's probably easier to do this way: one totally dry sound and you do what you want with it. Practical yes, but to my ears not satisfactory.

Caruso


From everything Deitz has said, MIR will change all that.
Posted on Sat, May 21 2005 04:05
by plowman
Joined on Sat, Dec 13 2003, Posts 1099
I struggle with the solo trumpet for reasons Caruso mentioned.

But for me, the king of naked instruments is that solo trombone. To my ears, it sounds like a synthesizer. I keep playing it, hitting the notes thinking that it must be my fault, that my understanding of that sound has been corrupted by highly processed orchestral music.

The solo trombone just seems impervious to effects. I feel like I've thrown everything at that instrument to warm it up and stitch it some acoustical clothing. I just haven't been able to use it in any setting. (The trombone ensemble is better.)

Can MIR ransom the solo trombone? That would be amazing to me.
Posted on Tue, May 24 2005 21:01
by Lynne Moquin
Joined on Tue, May 24 2005, Toronto Suburbs, Posts 14
If I can't afford Altiverb yet anyway, should I assume MIR will be the One to wait for ?

Lynne
Lynne Moquin
Posted on Wed, May 25 2005 07:45
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7450
Welcome Lynne -

The MIR will fullfill quite some dreams of us "virtual" musicians - nevertheless, it won't be a miracle cure against everything Wink . Mind you, we are talking about real (multi-sampled) rooms here, and not some kind of audio snake-oil.

... but then again, the first productions we were doing using a subset of the MIR's principles showed some kind of magic touch that each instrument receives from these very rooms. If this is what you aim for, then yes, MIR is the one to wait for.

It will most certainly be more expensive than AltiVerb, though.

All the best,

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Wed, May 25 2005 15:19
by Andy B
Joined on Tue, Feb 11 2003, England, Posts 169
Plowman wrote:
I struggle with the solo trumpet for reasons Caruso mentioned.

But for me, the king of naked instruments is that solo trombone. To my ears, it sounds like a synthesizer. I keep playing it, hitting the notes thinking that it must be my fault, that my understanding of that sound has been corrupted by highly processed orchestral music.

The solo trombone just seems impervious to effects. I feel like I've thrown everything at that instrument to warm it up and stitch it some acoustical clothing. I just haven't been able to use it in any setting. (The trombone ensemble is better.)

Can MIR ransom the solo trombone? That would be amazing to me.


I agree that brass are the hardest instruments to position convincingly, but I'd have to say that, in my opinion, the VSL trumpet has the most bite of any sampled trumpet available - I'm getting better results with it than with my far mic'd libraries. To get it to sit in an orchestral mix you need at least two good quality reverbs: a general hall; and a smallish hall to act as an early reflection. It's a case of experimenting with sending different amounts of send to each until you hear a sweet spot. I sometimes use compression also as the effect of far mic'ing often levels out the dynamics. Finally EQ is needed. I cut by 3.5dB at 250 Hz using a wide bandwidth and boost by 5 dB at 9kHz again with a wide bandwidth. Have a listen to my Jupiter demo as I was quite pleased with how the trumpets sounded on that piece.

Hope this helps.

Andy.
Posted on Wed, May 25 2005 16:34
by Areglator
Joined on Sat, Aug 02 2003, Manila, Philippines, Posts 20
thanks for the great tip Andy. I'll try that right away. The brass in the Jupiter demo are as good as I've ever heard from samples...very LA...which only underlines the usability of the library Smile


Gerard
Less is more
You cannot post new threads in this forum.
You cannot reply to threads in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.