Vienna Symphonic Library Forum
Forum Statistics

181,900 users have contributed to 42,191 threads and 254,624 posts.

In the past 24 hours, we have 3 new thread(s), 14 new post(s) and 55 new user(s).

  • Persichetti's teachings need a health warning

    Anyone here believe that orchestras play in equal temperament (ET)? I sincerely hope not. It's high time music theorists and teachers cleaned up their act and put ET back in its place. And it's way past time for ET's monopoly in electronic and computer-based production of music to be ended. Today there's no technical reason why digital music technology shouldn't catch up with the actual facts of orchestral music and allow orchestral composers to hear true Pythagorean intonation while writing.

    Aesthetically, ET is a one-trick pony: it renders the blues scale like no other intonation schema can, chiefly because it has notes extremely close to the 17th and 19th partials (the "blue" note and the minor third). But blues-oriented music, having made billions for the pop music industry over several decades, has done its dash.

    Other than its noble and virtuous service to the blues, ET is a 'good-time gal' of loose morals who will go with anyone and pretend to be like them (e.g. Pythagoras or meantone or just intonation). Of course composers have benefitted from this latter characteristic of ET - it's a tremendously convenient "rapid-protyping" tool. Music theorists and teachers too have benefitted from ET's "loose morals", sitting at a piano and conjuring up endless examples to show how pretty much anything goes these days - Juilliard Professor Vincent Persichetti being a prime example. (And please don't get me started on Schoenberg!)

    Among the advocates of highly chromatic and atonal music composition, Paul Hindemith did at least acknowledge that the dreaded comma is a very real and necessary - if somewhat awkward and embarrassing - phenomenon in orchestral music, and which tends to be hidden in the least conspicuous places. Persichetti, by contrast, doesn't seem to worry at all about putting the comma in full view, even between two consecutive notes in the top line of a harmonic progression! (e.g. Persichetti, Twentieth Century Harmony, Ex. 3-19, p76.) It seems Schoenberg, Persichetti, and others like them were gripped by some militant kind of parochial blindness (or rather, deafness) in the cosy, conceited and convenient world of their beloved pianos. In music, to cheat the ear is to impoverish the soul. What spiritual poverty have these men inflicted on humanity?

    My chief reason for wanting to dethrone the de facto monarchy of ET in computer-based music production is that I believe far too many professional composers and songwriters today are missing out on the manifold nuances and hence the enormous world of potential inspiration involved if they were to hear Pythagorean intonation as they play and write their pieces for orchestra; their productions all too often tend to be trite, platitudinous, clichéd, unadventurous or generally uninspiring as a consequence of using ET. With ET, they might as well try to make love to a woman while both are wearing astronaut's spacesuits. Indeed in the 1970s the UK Musicians Union issued a formal complaint that playing too much modernist atonal music was responsible for premature hair loss and conjugal dissatisfaction in the bedroom, among orchestral musicians!

    Amateurs too, myself included, whose ears are not deeply and securely steeped in orchestral intonation, can rediscover the nuanced depths, beauty and complexity of melody when hearing their own meanderings on the keyboard rendered in Pythagorean intonation in real time. Some convenience is sacrificed, but I say the price is well worth it.

    Cheers,

    Macker


  • last edited
    last edited

    I'm a big fan of equal temperament. Without it, modulation as a compositional resource would not exist. There's a reason ET has been around since Bach's time. Of course, it has its detractors, what doesn't?

    As far as electronic music and synths go, and even samples, one can tune their instruments in pretty much any way desired.

    Jerry


  • Since I've played in orchestras I know you basically tune to the other instruments, not a system.  

    However samples can be tuned to various tuning schemes.  There was a thread earlier on the topic of Hermode tuning.  


  • Hello Jerry,

    Four points:

    1. I haven't said I'm opposed to the continuation of ET, because I'm not. Of course I'll not take issue with your desire to stick with ET. Nor would I ever dream of saying goodbye to any of my favourite works written for Piano by great masters. Rather, in the spirit of anti-trust laws, I say ET's claim to monopoly is no longer warranted or desirable, especially when some theorists, teachers and composers talk and act as if there is and always has been only ET.

    2. Perhaps I should have called ET a two-trick pony, given its facility for (somewhat fake) modulation through 12 of the 15 standard keys, as compared to fixed 12-note Meantone and Pythagorean tunings which can cover only 6 complete diatonic major and decending melodic minor scales at any one moment. Even so, the fact is that for centuries, keyboard music included modulation without the benefit of ET - albeit not as extensively as more modern music written for piano, organ, etc.. So modulation as such has never depended on ET, as you claim. Moreover, I'm sure I'm not the only one who is somewhat averse to ET's creepy trick of making it seem as if modulation is happening whereas in fact it's like walking up or down an escalator that is slowly moving in the opposite direction. The sense of going places definitely suffers in ET.

    3. There's doubt among scholars as to exactly what intonation schema Bach used to tune his famous Wohltemperierte Klavier. Generally speaking, whatever it was, Bach's tuning was extraordinary in his day in that for centuries, meantone temperament was used extensively in Europe until well into the 19th century. According to Alexander Ellis (in Hermann Helmholtz, On the Sensations of Tone, 1954, 1885; tr. from Die Lehre von den Tonempfindungen, 1877), at the Great Exhibition in London in 1851, "no English organ was tuned to equal temperament, but the only German organ exhibited (Schultze's) was so tuned." Shortly after that, increasingly, English organs and pianfortes were tuned to ET. The precise beginnings and rise of of ET are somewhat obscure but it would certainly not be true to say that ET has been a mainstream - let alone the standard - intonation schema for keyboard instruments ever since Bach's time.

    4. I'm not talking about reverting to fixed tuning of virtual keyboard instruments to 12 notes of Pythagoras or meantone or any other schema. 12-note microtuning in computers has been possible for a good while, but the problem typically with that is the absence of prompt and agile real-time switching between different microtuning files according to the needs of modulation at any one moment, and over a very wide range of keys. I've designed and am using one of many possible technical means of modulating on the fly through some 80 keys in pure Pythagorean or any variety of meantone temperament, and through all keys in 53-edo (with generous overlaps at each end of the "great circle" of 53 to accommodate an orderly and timely skip between note aliases). Max Reger, arguably the greatest ever exponent of modulation, would probably have bitten my arm off to get his hands on this system! Still think I'm trying to stifle modulation? Lol, I've already moved on to supermodulation.

    Best of luck with your ET.

    Cheers, 

    Macker


  • Hello William,

    yes I read that article on hermode tuning. It was gratifying to discover Werner Mohrlok, the co-inventor of that very ingenious system, here in this forum. I'm loathe to find fault with such an incredibly smart invention but have to say that like ET, it doesn't actually go anywhere; ultimately it just hangs around - albeit fluidly and very nicely - the same fixed 12 cardinal notes of ET. Nevertheless, I very much like the effects it has on chords - and all without the user having to touch anything!

    As you know, when violins play double stops spanning a third or a sixth, the lower note is always adjusted to tune the interval to just intonation, while the upper note continues in its proper Pythagorean line. The same sometimes applies to certain brass and wind instruments playing those intervals in ensemble. It all goes to make computer-based simulation of orchestral performance very very tricky and arduous, insofar as we want to make those simulations as convincing and valid as possible. The hermode system can definitely help in this regard.

    I tell you this, William, I'll never stop being blown away and all too often brought to tears by great orchestras playing exquisite pieces by great masters. The years and years of devotion to learning and practice, practice and more practice by those musicians just leaves me utterly humbled. I never want to see software-based instrumentalities totally replace real orchestras - indeed I can't forsee the day when software can flawlessly simulate all the human skills and touches that go into a great performance by a real orchestra. That said, I think (at least hope) there'll be plenty of room for both. I for one want to go into experimental areas of music impossible for orchestras to play, and yet I know I'll always come back to dote over a recording of, oh, perhaps Vengerov and the VFCO playing Mozart's 29th, or maybe Barenboim leading the Berlin Staatskapelle in Beethoven's Piano Concerto No 5. You get the idea. Life in love with music is as full of passionate difficulties as much as, well, any other real love.

    I'll be posting more about my Logic Pro-based system as time goes by, cuz (when my current design update is finished and when Apple has made 14-bit arithmetic work again in Logic's Environment) I want to give it away to all, most especially to those who can (potentially) really make good use of it. Please don't pay too much heed to my polemics against this or that aspect of todays music-making, it's just that I'm convinced the revolution in computer-based music technology has yet to approach its zenith and I'm desperate to avoid sinking into complacency and be too readily satisfied with today's state-of-the-art. We ain't there yet! Lol.

    Take care William,

    Cheers, Macker


  • Macker, I like your enthusiastic interest in this and you have some very interesting points.

    On another thread I posted excerpts from a score that mainly uses an 8-tone scale I have been fascinated by - that would be very interesting to apply non-standard tunings to, though I haven't yet done it.  


  • William, I've hopped over to your "Unusual tunings" thread.


  • last edited
    last edited

    @Macker said:

     

    My chief reason for wanting to dethrone the de facto sovereignty of ET in computer-based music production is that I believe far too many professional composers and songwriters today are missing out on the manifold nuances and hence the enormous world of potential inspiration involved if they were to hear Pythagorean intonation as they play and write their pieces for orchestra; their productions all too often tend to be trite, platitudinous, clichéd, 

     

    Well, I agree with this much. 12tET as serving 'the blues' particularly, not so much. 😊


  • PaulP Paul moved this topic from Orchestration & Composition on