Vienna Symphonic Library Forum
Forum Statistics

180,752 users have contributed to 42,140 threads and 254,362 posts.

In the past 24 hours, we have 3 new thread(s), 16 new post(s) and 48 new user(s).

  • Fantasy for Flute and Piano

    So, while in the midst of changing my baby's diaper, my wife says that I should write a piece for flute and piano. And with that, "Fantasy" is born :) I hope you'll take a few minutes to listen and comment if you'd like. https://soundcloud.com/dearvillain/fantasy-for-flute-and-piano Thanks for listening! Dave

  • Hi Dave,

    Even though the piece does have a theme (flute plays it), the piece improvises around quite free, for the fun of it. So it seemed to me, at least, and, of course, the name suggests that too.

    Love the piano (live playing), those bold chords reminded me of Rachmaninov for some reason. My favourite moment is the quiet part that starts around 3:00. I called it "a moment when nobody watches". One moment when the music sounded strange to me was at 2:40, that unison. Not sure why it does, I can't see why it should stand out.

    About the stereo field - it's quite wide, and with only two instruments playing it doesn't need to, I thought. Actually, it sounds fine on my speakers, but in the headphones the picture is just a bit disjoined, at least sometimes.

    P.S. Indeed, as in those verses:

    "...I wish you knew the kind of garbage heap

    Wild verses grow on, paying shame no heed,

    Like dandelions yellowing a fence,

    Like burdock and bindweed..."


  • Hi Crusoe,

    Thanks for listening and for your comments.  It's becoming somewhat of an echo chamber on this forum, with only a small handful of us actually posting/commenting on each others' works.  Sad that more people don't join in, regardless of whether or not they have technical insight or not.  We can only hope...

    About the stereo field, it is actually quite narrow (positioning relative to microphone is at 11 and 1).  That said, as would be expected in a live concert, one can easily distinguish timbrally between piano and flute, and along with the distinct ranges of the two parts, it makes it easy to hear the separation in terms of the stereo field.  With more instruments filling the frequency spectrum, I suspect this wouldn't be as obvious a problem.   Anyway, Becky and I also have stopped listening/mixing/mastering my music on anything but our studio monitors.  No headphones/car stereo references, etc.  It is entirely possible that what sounded balanced/good on our system would not hold up on your headphones.  This is probably the single greatest thing professional mastering engineers try to do: make mixes sound good on as wide an array of listening devices as possible.

    Cheers!

    Dave


  • Dave, that sounds great - it's a really well developed piece and the flute is remarkably expressive and beautifully programmed with the dynamics and espressivo vibrato.  The use of the p-f-p dynamics is so valuable but rarely done because they aren't easy and instant to put in.  Yet they are completely normal for live performance.   

    btw I was thinking how this and a few other pieces one hears are so real that the simple lack of breath sounds, clicks, ambient noises etc. becomes the only unrealistic element.  Though I've ever been able to  bring myself to introduce those into a performance of my own...   


  • Thanks, Bill!  Your comments are much appreciated.

    I agree totally about those auxillary sounds that go missing when using samples, although, I love the key clicks I hear in many of the VSL flute samples.  Generally speaking, if we went to the trouble of adding these, there would always be those that would call in to question why we're trying to fool them in to thinking it's a live performance.  I suppose if I wanted to submit an album of virtual orchestrations to a radio station, incorporating those sounds would likely serve to convince them the performances are "real" (they are real, regardless, as we play/program them in).  Anyway, I'm just happy that I can bring my music to life with these wonderful tools, and hope they inspire real performers to program them.

    Cheers,

    Dave

    p.s.  your email comment to me about the "tuba sonata" was absolutely brilliant :) lol


  • Hi Dave,

    Most of the (sparely) expressed comments bear my consent, I share the same opinion, except for the flute. Being a flute player myself, I don't really like the sound of the instrument here for two reasons: the flute seems behind a curtain on the stage and sounds differently, missing all the clarity of the piano. Second: the normal (windy) attack and the breath flow (as William mentioned a bit) doesn't always sound very natural. It may have to do with the recorded samples and their player, but I'm sure the approach could improve things a bit. A modern flute should scintillate warmth and richness in it's tone, a nice swelling vibrato (technique most flute players have to learn) as you perform in some place, but not enough. Staccatos should be dry and short, very punchy and have a sharp starting sound. They're not just blowing the flute short and hard, but use auxiliary means like tongue, lips, even teeth (and that is different from a clarinet obviously).

    But let's focus on the composition itself. You chose to write a fantasy and so you did in many wonderful ways. The piano dominates but the flute nicely fends and takes eloquently over in brilliant sentences. The rich and carefully chosen harmonies provide a small touch of exotism (in a rather classical context) and lift the charm of the entire piece.
    Dave, you certainly know how to please a broad audience. This piece could absolutely be a chamber music hit!

    Jos


  • Hi again, Jos!

    Thank you for your wonderful compliments about the piece!  I'm blushing :)

    As for the flute sound/performance, what can I say?  I was honestly quite smitten with the quality of the samples (VSL's flute 2, as it has progressive vibrato and a "meatier" sound in my opinion).  Becky actually commented that this, along with Vesuvius (a piece I wrote for piano and violin) are among the most like-like renditions yet.  But, of course, a flute player is going to be more sensitive to the nuances and details of their own instrument for which they've spent a life-time studying/playing/listening to.  

    To my ears, I'm tickled pink with the flute sound and know that bar very few, well-rehearsed musicians, a live performance would likely yield more of the nuances you'd like to hear, but also many technical imperfections.  As we discussed a long while back with my string trio, In the Blink of an Eye, I'll take the sampled version that closely reflects my vision over a live performance that adds 3 minutes to the length, four hundred erroneously placed pitches, and a myriad of other issues that detract from the overall listening experience.  Of course, a well-rehearsed, technically dazzling live performance will always trump the samples, but where are these elusive musicians and how come they won't play our music? :) lol

    Cheers,
    Dave


  • "..a live performance that adds 3 minutes to the length, four hundred erroneously placed pitches, and a myriad of other issues that detract from the overall listening experience" - Acclarion

    I love that description.  I've said this before, that it is actually now difficult to get a live performance as good as VSL.  No one seemed to believe me. To so many people the followin is a knee-jerk rsponse:

    Live = beautiful

    Sampled = fake

    Actually what often happens is:

    Live = appallingly ugly

    Sampled = Startingly beautiful

    Unless you have the Berlin Philharmonic, the London Symphony, or perhaps the Philadelphia Orchestra beating a path to your door, begging you to give them something to play...


  • Nice composition Acclarion. Given the inspiration for the piece, not at all what I expected, but listenable. 

    William, your post about live vs sampled should be required reading on every music forum. I would especially like the folks over on VI-C to read your post. For many years I did extremely simple arrangements of typical hymns and songs for live performance in church. Each week only one rehearsal. So one quickly learns to control for playability above all else. It can be very discouraging and frustrating. As a former instrumentalist, I am ashamed to admit it, but it's true. 

    Yet, I still have hope that one day my orchestral music will be performed live. Silly of me.


  • Thanks, Paul. "Listenable" isn't probably the most flattering emotional response one would hope for, but it sure beats, "yuck". Cheers, Dave

  • last edited
    last edited

    @Acclarion said:

    Thanks, Paul. "Listenable" isn't probably the most flattering emotional response one would hope for, but it sure beats, "yuck".

    Cheers,
    Dave

    It is important for us to be honest with each other. Our family and friends will never tell us the truth because they are our family and friends. We all need honest feedback in order to thrive and continue to improve. BUT, I draw the line at actual insults or harsh comments. I hope to never, ever, say something hurtful about the work of a living composer. So, does that make sense? Is it helpful?

    I like some of your pieces better than others. That should not be a surprise. This piece was good enough that I wanted you to know that I listened, but it didn't blow me away. If I was listening to it in a live concert I would offer polite applause but not a standing ovation. 

    I hope that is helpful. 


  • last edited
    last edited

     

    @Acclarion said:

    Thanks, Paul. "Listenable" isn't probably the most flattering emotional response one would hope for, but it sure beats, "yuck".

    Cheers,
    Dave

    It is important for us to be honest with each other. Our family and friends will never tell us the truth because they are our family and friends. We all need honest feedback in order to thrive and continue to improve. BUT, I draw the line at actual insults or harsh comments. I hope to never, ever, say something hurtful about the work of a living composer. So, does that make sense? Is it helpful?

    I like some of your pieces better than others. That should not be a surprise. This piece was good enough that I wanted you to know that I listened, but it didn't blow me away. If I was listening to it in a live concert I would offer polite applause but not a standing ovation. 

    I hope that is helpful. 

    I agree that it is important to be honest, but I think you and I approach this in a different way.  Your opinion is valid, as is your right to let me know what you believe is "good enough" or worthy of your applause.  That said, I don't really think your feedback helped me in any way improve as a composer.  First, you offered no technical reasons for why my piece is only good/worthy of polite applause.  It only let me know that it's not good enough for you to get overly excited by.  Second, you have very strong views of what you like, and stylistically, from both of our past offerings, it's highly unlikely that any of my music will match your sensibilities (take for example when you told me that no string quartet has ever impressed you, and mine was much the same).  You've also expressed disinterest in the music of others with a more modern flare, and so, we're already coming from two very different areas of interest...which of course means, it's inevitable that my style won't line up with yours and there's nothing wrong with that.

    So with that in mind, I am happy when you and me find common ground and interest, even though I already know you're not naturally drawn to my style of writing.  I do appreciate you letting me know where my music stands with you, and I'll hopefully one day share something worthy of your standing ovation 😊

    All the best,

    Dave


  • last edited
    last edited

    Hi Dave,

    I agree with almost everything you wrote. ðŸ˜Š  And I am impressed that you remember so much about my aesthetic preferences, or at least partly. Let us leave aside the difficulty of writing for the string quartet for the moment, as that is such a big topic and involves special issues.

    If you want more detailed feedback I am delighted to provide it, as you are one of the most active members of this community and I deeply respect your ability as a serious composer. 

    First let me point out that I am just one retired amateur composer, so my opinion isn't worth much. Your music is not atonal or random or offensive in any way. I like many of your compositions. In fact, lots of music being written today is very pleasing to me. For me, it is not a matter of when the music was written, but the quality of the music itself.

    I sort of wish I hadn't started this since as I get older I find it harder and harder to engage in discussions that could turn into debates. OK, about your piece. Perhaps a comparison is in order.

    Your piece "The Exorcism" is, in my opinion, one of the best things you have ever posted. The piece is filled with emotion and pathos. The use of each instrument is superb. Lots of variety of colors and textures, but always contributing to the emotional context of the piece. Having some instruments resting frequently adds to their impact when they enter. Harmonic choices are excellent, particularly in the creative use of pedal tones. I am not saying it is "perfect" nor is it something I would have written, but it is a piece that I would give a standing ovation.

    "Fantasy for Flute and Piano" contains some wonderful, rich romantic harmonies and the flute part is mostly very idiomatic. I realize that you named it a Fantasy, so you are not obliged to provide form, but in the absence of form, something else is needed to propel the piece forward. It is obviously not a show-stopping bravura showcase for the flute. Nor does the piece offer a melody that captures our hearts like "The Lark Ascending" by Vaughn Williams, which sounds just as delicious performed by a flute as it does on the violin. The piece does not "to me" convey a clear emotional appeal like "The Exorcism." There is nothing wrong with the piece. It is very workmanlike. My concern is not with what it contains but what it lacks. You can do better. You have done better in the past, so I know you can.

    Best wishes,

    Paul


  • last edited
    last edited

    Hi Paul, 

    Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts in such detail.  While I'm sure we're going to lose everybody on our back and forth, I'm happy to respond to your post with my perspective.  If nothing else, we'll each have a better understanding of how we think about and approach music, both as creators and listeners.  My comments will be bolded below yours:

    @Paul McGraw said:

    Hi Dave,

    I agree with almost everything you wrote. ðŸ˜Š  And I am impressed that you remember so much about my aesthetic preferences, or at least partly. Let us leave aside the difficulty of writing for the string quartet for the moment, as that is such a big topic and involves special issues.

    For sure, the string quartet is a unique beast.  My personal interest in writing for strings has emerged in recent years, as I enjoy the ability to write contrapuntally, and the nimble responsiveness of a small string ensemble allows me to go from long, lyrical espressivo writing to virtuosic, "hair-raising" (yes, bad pun) passages and everything in between.

    If you want more detailed feedback I am delighted to provide it, as you are one of the most active members of this community and I deeply respect your ability as a serious composer. 

    Thank you.  

    First let me point out that I am just one retired amateur composer, so my opinion isn't worth much. Your music is not atonal or random or offensive in any way. I like many of your compositions. In fact, lots of music being written today is very pleasing to me. For me, it is not a matter of when the music was written, but the quality of the music itself.

    First, retired amateur composer or not, your opinion as with everyone else's is worth plenty.  Musicians, especially those with formal/academic backgrounds are often quick to dismiss anything but the most intellectual arguments rooted in a deep understanding of theoretical principles and musicology.  However, absent the ability to describe why a person does or doesn't enjoy a piece/style of music, everyone is able to determine for themselves what resonates and what doesn't.  To that end, they're entitled to share their views from their own perspective, recognizing that others may have a completely different perspective.

    I sort of wish I hadn't started this since as I get older I find it harder and harder to engage in discussions that could turn into debates. OK, about your piece. Perhaps a comparison is in order.

    What could turn in to a debate doesn't have to turn ugly.  A spirited conversation is far more enjoyable than a vicious back and forth (goes without saying) but is also preferred to no discussion at all.  Many of us share our music here to crickets, so at the very least, you've stimulated a discussion that will give us all a chance to reflect on our own views/interests.

    Your piece "The Exorcism" is, in my opinion, one of the best things you have ever posted. The piece is filled with emotion and pathos. The use of each instrument is superb. Lots of variety of colors and textures, but always contributing to the emotional context of the piece. Having some instruments resting frequently adds to their impact when they enter. Harmonic choices are excellent, particularly in the creative use of pedal tones. I am not saying it is "perfect" nor is it something I would have written, but it is a piece that I would give a standing ovation.

    Thanks for this.  To tackle the end first, how does one describe a "perfect" piece?  Is there such a thing?  What are the criteria for musical perfection?  Anyway, as to the other points, The Exorcism speaks to you precisely because the criteria you value were met.  I was apologetic in posting it because I was aware that many that favour a strong melodic focus, with more conventional harmony and form might be disinterested.  There are those that I know would prefer to sit in a concert featuring the Fantasy for Flute and Piano over The Exorcism.  There are also musicians that would probably enjoy the challenges of performing The Exorcism, even if the audience was less excited by the piece.

    "Fantasy for Flute and Piano" contains some wonderful, rich romantic harmonies and the flute part is mostly very idiomatic. I realize that you named it a Fantasy, so you are not obliged to provide form, but in the absence of form, something else is needed to propel the piece forward. It is obviously not a show-stopping bravura showcase for the flute. Nor does the piece offer a melody that captures our hearts like "The Lark Ascending" by Vaughn Williams, which sounds just as delicious performed by a flute as it does on the violin. The piece does not "to me" convey a clear emotional appeal like "The Exorcism." There is nothing wrong with the piece. It is very workmanlike. My concern is not with what it contains but what it lacks. You can do better. You have done better in the past, so I know you can.

    To be succinct, you mentioned your concern is not with what it contains but what it lacks.  I suppose if we used this criteria in evaluating every piece of music, we could easily find that Bach lacks Mahler's powerful orchestration, Mozart's piano music lacks the depth and emotional impact of Beethoven's, etc.  When we look at a piece in reference to any others, there will always be elements that appear in one piece and not another; there will always be a purpose behind the piece, why it was written, and why certain decisions were made as to the style/aesthetic/technical qualities of the piece.  

    I write very quickly, and on a whim, almost always.  I put "pen to paper" within 60 seconds of sitting down at the keyboard.  Once that initial measure of music is written, I develop it whether I want to or not, without revising, re-thinking, re-vamping anything.  Why do I do this?  Because if I were to put so much thought in to what I was doing prior to starting, I would never write anything.  As modern composers, we're inevitably going to bear the burden of being compared to centuries of greats.  We're also going to have to find meaning in what we write for ourselves as well as hopefully, for others to enjoy.  All those forces make it virtually impossible for any individual to confidently sit down and believe that the next thing they write, will be satisfactory to all.

    Fantasy was written on a whim, as I mentioned, in a brief discussion with my wife.  Two days earlier, I had written a woodwind quintet, that's the complete antithesis of Fantasy and in a different universe than The Exorcism.  At the same time, I'm still working on an orchestral suite that's again, different.  As a composer, for me, the fun/challenge is trying to push myself to do different things, with very little outside inspiration/purpose other than my own artistic development and hopefully, the enjoyment of a small audience that "gets it."  

    Each piece will inevitably fall somewhere on a spectrum...some technically challenging, some with a heart-wrenching melody, some with a completely identifiable sonata-allegro form, others with insane 5 part counterpoint, still others with complex poly-rhythmic elements, or extended instrument techniques, etc. etc. etc.  What your detailed reply served to do, is to put in to words why you appreciated a certain piece more than another, and I can totally respect and understand that, so thank you :)

    Music is so personal, and our reasons for liking things may be justified by "defending our arguments", but they can just as easily be silly/irrational/nonsensical.  I won't apologize for liking a bubble gum pop song, just because I'm aware of Mahler (who incidentally I have very little interest in listening to compared to Bach, Mozart, or Faure, for example...let the attacks begin!)  The one thing I'm grateful for is that I have the ability to explore my own voice free from any outside influences, or the urgency of doing music to make money (not that I wouldn't like to, mind you!)

    Thanks again, Paul for sharing your thoughts.  I hope we can all continue to celebrate the talents of the many brilliant people on this forum, many of whom are quiet sources of inspiration to me.

    Cheers!

    Dave

    Best wishes,

    Paul


  • Hi Dave,

    I agree with much of your post. To address your last point first, I don't see any reason why any exchange between us would cause me to cease being active on this forum. Nor would I "dislike" someone personally because they disagree with me about music. I do realize that others make a choice to personally dislike me because of my views, but so be it. 

    I have been involved in countless discussions over the past 40 or 50 years about musical aesthetics. I earned a degree in mucal composition in 1976 and the same aesthetic arguments were going on then, 42 years ago. I expect similar discussions about all art have occurred since the beginning of art itself.

    Picture an after the concert party with six young composers of modernist crap. They have all just contributed pieces to an important  "contemporary music" concert. It is a scene of unintended satiric comedy. Every piece is magnificent, the composers are all brilliant, the pieces pure genius, and if anyone suggests otherwise, they are mercilessly attacked en masse. The composition professor arrives and all turn to him in rapturous applause. He is the greatest genius of them all. Surely all of them are destined to be famous and successful composers. I was one of those young people, and this was an actual scene from my life. Sadly 42 years later, none of the young composers, or the professor, have become famous and successful composers. 

    I keep writing and deleting additional paragraphs as I am not sure what else I can add that will be both honest and helpful, and it is important to me to try to be both honest and helpful. I know that you did not ask for my help or value my experience or honesty. I do not make that presumption.  I look forward to listening to your next composition. 

    Paul


  • On this piece my immediate response was the flute sounded extremely good, realistic, and expressive.  So I disagree with the post from Jos about it not being adequate.  It was actually better than a lot of the official demos.  

    But that may not be good enough now.  It is becoming a little silly on the demos of VSL - This one is "correct" and that one is not.  In other words, the musical taste of this or that person is now the decider. Not the samples.  But that actually shows the quality of the library and performances. 


  • Post removed due to unwanted misunderstandings.

    Jos


  • Jos,

    Sorry - I realized I shouldn't comment further.


  • last edited
    last edited

    Hi Dave,

    I had the opportunity this morning to take the rest to listen to your piece. And I want to congratulate you with this beautiful piece and the (of course in my ears but that's always, I just can't use other than mine ðŸ˜Š ðŸ˜‰ beautiful rendition of the flute. The overal tone, somewhat thin like a flute can sound, and I like that sound, it has a kind of flexibility in it, but also the nice use of the dynamics, what takes you long with the music, beautiful. I understand Becky very well that she said, that this is perhaps one of your best renditions. And a good cooperation between you and her: she asks for a piece for flute and piano, and there it is...


  • Thanks guys for keeping the piece alive...its shelf life has exceeded expectations and hopefully I'll receive a whopping 2-5 additional listens on Soundcloud as a result of the discussion :)

    William:  I'm honoured that someone with your mastery of VSL instruments thinks highly enough of the piece that it could be a demo.  I've never been asked by VSL, and of course, would have loved to, but as another composer that doesn't frequent here often reminded me, my music and mockup skills aren't good enough.  I'd prefer to listen to your opinion, though :) 

    Jos:  Your opinions and thoughts re. your flute preferences are completely valid, informative, and appreciated.  As the late Canadian TV chef, "The Urban Peasant" James Barber always said when cooking:  make do with what you have (he was always missing a key ingredient for his dish and would substitute things...of course, he never ran out of sherry, which he would drink while cooking and breathing heavily through his nostrils).  But I digress.  My point is, I only have the standard libraries, not extended, and while I always strive to create the best performance I can, to be honest, even if I had access to another 30 samples of a staccato note, I'd quickly be overwhelmed by the possibilities and probably would question every decision I made even more than I already do.  As long as I'm happy with the overall performance, I recognize there will always be things that could be improved, and of course, a live performance is still a goal for most of these pieces.

    MMKA:  So nice to hear from you again!  Hope all is well, and thank you so much for your kind comments.  Yes, Becky does a great job commissioning pieces from me, but without any monetary payment :) lol