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most versatile notation software to be used with Vienna VSL?
Last post Sun, Apr 07 2019 by PaoloT, 11 replies.
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Posted on Sat, Mar 23 2019 18:03
by Sergino Futurino
Joined on Thu, Dec 18 2003, Italy, Posts 652

up to today, is Sibelius still the most versatile notation software to be used with Vienna VSL?

www.sergiobrunetti.it
Windows 10 on Vertex4 SSD - I7 3960x overclocked @4.0 Ghz - 32 GB RAM -
2010 MacbookPro 2.66 Ghz 8 Giga RAM -
MOTU: 2408 MK3, 24i, Traveler,MIDI Express XT
Studio One 4.1 Pro, Notion 6.5, Sibelius 6.2, Kontakt 5.6
VE Pro 6, VI Pro 2, Vienna Suite, Vienna MIR Pro w/Roompacks 1 and 2,
Libraries (preload size 2408): Special Edition Standard and Plus, Appassionata I, Solo Strings I, Dimension Brass, Percussion, Soprano Choir, Upright Bass, Flugelhorn, Saxophones, Concert guitar, Jazz Drums, Epic Orchestra, Dimension Strings
Posted on Sat, Mar 23 2019 23:45
by Bill
Joined on Fri, Sep 23 2005, Berkshires, MA, Posts 938

It's the best suported, if that's what you mean...

Finale 25, Sibelius 2018, Notion 6, Overture 5, Cubase 10.0.2
Win10 x64, 32GB RAM; Focusrite Scarlett 18i20
Kontakt, Bunch of VSL, VIP, VEP, EWQL Orch, Choir and Pianos
August Forster 190
Posted on Sun, Mar 24 2019 10:13
by Sergino Futurino
Joined on Thu, Dec 18 2003, Italy, Posts 652

yes thanks

www.sergiobrunetti.it
Windows 10 on Vertex4 SSD - I7 3960x overclocked @4.0 Ghz - 32 GB RAM -
2010 MacbookPro 2.66 Ghz 8 Giga RAM -
MOTU: 2408 MK3, 24i, Traveler,MIDI Express XT
Studio One 4.1 Pro, Notion 6.5, Sibelius 6.2, Kontakt 5.6
VE Pro 6, VI Pro 2, Vienna Suite, Vienna MIR Pro w/Roompacks 1 and 2,
Libraries (preload size 2408): Special Edition Standard and Plus, Appassionata I, Solo Strings I, Dimension Brass, Percussion, Soprano Choir, Upright Bass, Flugelhorn, Saxophones, Concert guitar, Jazz Drums, Epic Orchestra, Dimension Strings
Posted on Fri, Apr 05 2019 10:33
by fatis12_24918
Joined on Sat, Dec 16 2006, Posts 263

 

NOTION also has a very advanced management of VSL sounds libraries and articulations, and it has a very effective playback management (e.g. "conducting" tempo creation in real time like Sibelius, but easier, advanced VST mixer and plugin support etc.).

NOTION anyway for engraving is not as powerful as SIBELIUS and fits more basic and more automatic page/score management.

In the close future DORICO PRO is supposed to be a very powerful and integrated notation software with VSL, but the MIDI editor and the Expression maps are still under development, actual status is not 100% operational (e.g. missing control on velocities, bugs and incompatibilities with the pre-existing Expression maps actually imported from Cubase, because native maps are not yet available etc.)

(P.S. it's a pity Finale wasn't developed to enhance articulations management, because I still consider Finale Human Playback the more natural and effective preview-playback in the industry, but at the actual status it's almost unusable with complex VSL matrices, and dynamic management is pretty poor with VSL players).

Posted on Fri, Apr 05 2019 16:20
by PaoloT
Joined on Tue, Dec 27 2016, Posts 606

Originally Posted by: fatis12_24918 Go to Quoted Post
it's a pity Finale wasn't developed to enhance articulations management, because I still consider Finale Human Playback the more natural and effective preview-playback in the industry

One of the nicest things with Dorico is that you can have both NotePerformer and VSL (or other libraries) play either the written or performed notes. So, you can record your playing with NotePerformer, and let NotePerfomer play back the written notes with its own interpretation algorhytyms; and then swtich to VSL, and let it play the notes you performed.

But yes, Dorico is still in an (advanced) development status. Usable, but with still some quirks.

Paolo

Posted on Fri, Apr 05 2019 20:19
by Sergino Futurino
Joined on Thu, Dec 18 2003, Italy, Posts 652

Originally Posted by: fatis12_24918 Go to Quoted Post

 

NOTION also has a very advanced management of VSL sounds libraries and articulations, and it has a very effective playback management (e.g. "conducting" tempo creation in real time like Sibelius, but easier, advanced VST mixer and plugin support etc.).

NOTION anyway for engraving is not as powerful as SIBELIUS and fits more basic and more automatic page/score management.

So, just for having the most articulated playback without caring for the engraving, you'd go the Sibelius 8 or the Notion way?

www.sergiobrunetti.it
Windows 10 on Vertex4 SSD - I7 3960x overclocked @4.0 Ghz - 32 GB RAM -
2010 MacbookPro 2.66 Ghz 8 Giga RAM -
MOTU: 2408 MK3, 24i, Traveler,MIDI Express XT
Studio One 4.1 Pro, Notion 6.5, Sibelius 6.2, Kontakt 5.6
VE Pro 6, VI Pro 2, Vienna Suite, Vienna MIR Pro w/Roompacks 1 and 2,
Libraries (preload size 2408): Special Edition Standard and Plus, Appassionata I, Solo Strings I, Dimension Brass, Percussion, Soprano Choir, Upright Bass, Flugelhorn, Saxophones, Concert guitar, Jazz Drums, Epic Orchestra, Dimension Strings
Posted on Fri, Apr 05 2019 21:23
by Bill
Joined on Fri, Sep 23 2005, Berkshires, MA, Posts 938

Notion suports the SE collections, not the full instruments.

Finale 25, Sibelius 2018, Notion 6, Overture 5, Cubase 10.0.2
Win10 x64, 32GB RAM; Focusrite Scarlett 18i20
Kontakt, Bunch of VSL, VIP, VEP, EWQL Orch, Choir and Pianos
August Forster 190
Posted on Sat, Apr 06 2019 07:37
by patmaddox
Joined on Tue, Jun 05 2018, Posts 52
Originally Posted by: PaoloT Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: fatis12_24918 Go to Quoted Post
it's a pity Finale wasn't developed to enhance articulations management, because I still consider Finale Human Playback the more natural and effective preview-playback in the industry

One of the nicest things withDorico is that you can have both NotePerformer and VSL (or other libraries) play either the written or performed notes. So, you can record your playing with NotePerformer, andletNotePerfomer play back the written notes with its own interpretation algorhytyms; and then swtich to VSL, and let it play the notes you performed.
But yes, Dorico is still in an (advanced) development status. Usable, but with still some quirks.
Paolo


It sounds like you’ve got Dorico working with VSL... do you have it set to interpret articulations and expressions and stuff like that? Or do you only use it to play back what you play in? I think I’d be fine with the latter - but how do you handle articulation switching?

My understanding is that there aren’t Dorico expression maps for VSL yet... so how are you using them together?
Posted on Sat, Apr 06 2019 11:06
by bbelius
Joined on Sat, Mar 14 2015, Posts 687

You can import Cubase Expression Maps in Dorico. You maybe have to optimize some things, but it should work (keep in mind that this feature in Dorico is still not 100% complete)

Here a link to the Steinberg forum where you can find more information and hints on what to change:
https://www.steinberg.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=246&t=135922

Best, Ben

Ben
Technical Support - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Sat, Apr 06 2019 16:50
by PaoloT
Joined on Tue, Dec 27 2016, Posts 606

As Ben says, you can already use the maps supplied for Cubase. You have to do some adaptation, and and not everything will work. But several things already work.

I know it is not the most eloquest example, but here is a comparison between NotePerformer and VSL. I'll try to post something better at a later date. That's just to show that it works.

Paolo

File Attachment(s):
Orgeval_NP.mp3 (254kb) downloaded 39 time(s).
Orgeval_VSL.mp3 (238kb) downloaded 31 time(s).

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Posted on Sun, Apr 07 2019 10:39
by PaoloT
Joined on Tue, Dec 27 2016, Posts 606

Ok, here is something more substantial. The Expression Maps had to be modifed to allow dynamic control via CC1, and the 'sustain' articulation to be replaced with 'Natural'. But it more or less works. The presets supplied by VSL do not contain the most advanced articulations (like the ftz used in this example), so you have to add them yourself.

It is to be noted that the NP example is automatically performed by NP with its algohrythms, reading the notes as they appear in the score. The VSL example is read from the notes as I performed them. So, the difference is not only in the sound, but also in the expressivity, timing and phrasing.

Another difference is in how dynamics are interpreted. The final crescendo/diminuendo makes apparent how the curves are interpreted in a very different way by the two libraries. Dorico seems to lack a user-editable dynamics curve, that would be very useful with third-party libraries.

Paolo

File Attachment(s):
Dorico_Flauto_NP.mp3 (908kb) downloaded 68 time(s).
Dorico_Flauto_VSL.mp3 (908kb) downloaded 68 time(s).
PaoloT attached the following image(s):
dorico-flauto.png (52kb) downloaded 6 time(s).

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