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Sul Tasto Dimension
Last post Wed, Apr 24 2019 by LenoT, 20 replies.
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Posted on Wed, Apr 10 2019 01:44
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5325

This is fantastic news!  Dimension strings are the most expressive sample library ever done and this addition is HUGE!  This delicate articulation of sul tasto especially fits with the individual, intimate sound of Dimension sampling, which allows such exquisite nuances and complexity between all the players.  Also, adding the articulation is so effective for various film scoring techniques such as atmospheric/eerie sections.  

The various Dimension strings have created a library that is like no other.   I remember when a library called "DVZ" was announced by another company - it is now long gone.  But it falsely promised what the Dimension Strings actually do: to create an ensemble, totally capable of divisi down to each player - but also sounding like a true ensemble instead of merely layered solo instruments, which always sounds bad.  So the Dimension recording technique solved this immense problem brilliantly. 

The addition of the sordino Dimension, as a complete section instead of just faked sordino like other libraries, or just a few articulations, was huge.  The sordino Dimension strings are incredibly beautiful, but now the sul tasto is VSL again demonstrating something awesome musically - in the purest sense: the entire set of articulations is presented in this playing style, and adds immensely to the already wonderful espressivo nature of this library.   The detail now available with Dimension strings is just amazing and truly exciting for any composer who really wants to use strings to their fullest expressive capabilities.  

I wanted to post this thread to avoid the conflicts and just make a positive comment on this great new addition to the VI lineup.  It has truly become a must-have for all serious composers using samples.  Thanks to the awesome team at VSL for creating this truly inspiring sound!

  

Posted on Wed, Apr 10 2019 08:05
by Pixelpoet1985
Joined on Fri, Dec 23 2016, Germany, Posts 160

+1000...

I'm relatively late to the dimension party. I have all the other VSL string libraries, but never actually liked one of them (except Chamber Strings with the espressivo layer), so I turnt to the competition. But there are so many flaws in their programming and not a single other library has a playable, fast legato, nor it allows you to play convincing runs and trills with their legato patches.

Dimension Strings is a whole new level. VSL has done a great job! I really like the direct sound (because it reminds me of LASS) and the playability. Unfortunately, some of the demos and especially the videos don't show the full potential and the sound you can achieve, in my opinion. I used to use Hollywood Strings, because of the finger positions, but the sul patches in Dimension Strings are much better.

-----

@William: Sorry for the off-topic, but this a huge topic for me.

In my opinion, VSL should put some time in reworking their website. As a new user you doesn't find the important information on the product pages, I had to search the entire (!) forum. Also, I think the main benefits (USPs) should be more prominent and on every single product page.

Some examples:

  • The high quality of the recordings and the consistency of the samples
  • The huge amount of articualtions
  • The ability to make your own patches (with cells and matrices in VI Pro)
  • Performance patches (interval, repetition, trill): The most important one! These are really the USPs of VSL, and you can't find information what these actually are. What is a performance trill? How is it to be played? etc. I believe that if more people had access to these information there would be more customers. No other library has these awesome features. I mean you can find some explanation in the VI Pro videos, but when you really want to purchase a library, there is no information on the patches on the product page. Also I'm missing information on velocity layers etc.
Posted on Wed, Apr 10 2019 10:18
by jasensmith
Joined on Tue, Jan 15 2008, Arizona, Posts 1469

Originally Posted by: Pixelpoet1985 Go to Quoted Post

 

In my opinion, VSL should put some time in reworking their website. As a new user you doesn't find the important information on the product pages, I had to search the entire (!) forum. Also, I think the main benefits (USPs) should be more prominent and on every single product page.

 

 

But what's important to you others may care less about.  Comparitvely speaking I think VSL's product pages are comprable to their competitors.  Personally, I go straight to the demos and if I like what I hear I'll dig deeper.

It's a tough job trying to design product pages for these libraries because you're dealing with a wide variety of people. Some people are old fashion pen and paper composers who just want their written works realized and could care less about how many samples a library has to offer or mic positions etc.  But they might care a lot about the fact that a professional musician like Gisela Mashayekhi-Beer recorded the flute samples on the Woodwinds I library.  While others may have more of a technical background in computers/programming and care more about GUI's Interfaces, software ease of use, and wouldn't know the difference between Gisela Mashayekhi-Beer and Gisela Mashayekhi-Grape Juice. 

Then there are media composers who are interested more in the number of articulations so they can quickly create their mockups for clients.  These folks could care less about the MIDI controllers and sample manipulation (VI Pro) because they're just trying to create an approximation of something that will be recorded live.

Then you have hobbyists, educators, students etc.  Everybody has different needs.  


"If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then quit. There's no point in being a damn fool about it."
- W.C. Fields
Posted on Wed, Apr 10 2019 12:53
by Pixelpoet1985
Joined on Fri, Dec 23 2016, Germany, Posts 160

Originally Posted by: jasensmith Go to Quoted Post

But what's important to you others may care less about.  Comparitvely speaking I think VSL's product pages are comprable to their competitors.  Personally, I go straight to the demos and if I like what I hear I'll dig deeper.

@William: Sorry, I didn't want to spoil this thread. Maybe this should be discussed elsewhere.

-----

I know it's a tough job, I'm a media designer, I know what I'm talking about. :)

I only gave some examples, my last point is the most important one for me. I'm not talking about technical things, e.g. which microphones were used, or who played the instrument which was recorded.

The competition doesn't show everything on the product page, either. But what should they write? A “simple” legato patch is a legato patch. Period. But VSL should at least mention the very basic things, which, in my opinion, are really the USPs of their libraries. They don't have a “simple” legato patch, they have a performance trill. You can play legato, you can play fast legato, you can play trills, you can play runs, you can play repetitions all in one patch. Wow! The competition doesn't have such a thing.

Of course, everybody has different needs. I agree, too. I took the time to go through all (!) threads in the forum, because I wanted to find out new things. What I can't understand is that there have always been the same questions FOR YEARS, e.g. what is a performance trill. So why not make these things more accessible?

Sorry, but I'm repeating myself: Man, these are the USPs of their libraries!!! I guess that many people out there simply don't even know about these things.

Posted on Fri, Apr 12 2019 14:42
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5325

That is a really good point Pixelpoet1985 and you are so right that it makes VSL very different from the other libraries.  There are so many variations in VSL of articulations based on actual musical practice that are very important in performance, and it is difficult to make people see that before they actually use the library. A big example is the  sul legato in the solo strings.  This is absolutely essential to string playing, distinguishing between merely smoothly connected but separately bowed notes, and on-the-string slides.  Yet they are both called legato. Many other examples as well...    

Posted on Fri, Apr 12 2019 19:19
by Kai
Joined on Sun, Dec 29 2002, Graz, Austria, Posts 135

William, the sul legato is a really good example. When I upgraded the Orchestral and Chamber Strings to full, I did not expect much and was blown away by the sul legato patches. They are still my favorite legato version since they are so "warm". Another strong point of their libraries, that VSL keeps really low-key, is the slurred legato. Whereas in Synchron Strings they point it out now, slurred legato is also included in most of the VI libraries, yet not even listed in the manuals. They are as far as I can tell completely separately recorded (normal and fast versions for standard and muted instruments and already contained in the standard libraries), include even more samples than the ordinary legato and are very useful to have.

Posted on Fri, Apr 12 2019 20:40
by Pixelpoet1985
Joined on Fri, Dec 23 2016, Germany, Posts 160

Originally Posted by: William Go to Quoted Post

That is a really good point Pixelpoet1985 and you are so right that it makes VSL very different from the other libraries.  There are so many variations in VSL of articulations based on actual musical practice that are very important in performance, and it is difficult to make people see that before they actually use the library. A big example is the  sul legato in the solo strings.  This is absolutely essential to string playing, distinguishing between merely smoothly connected but separately bowed notes, and on-the-string slides.  Yet they are both called legato. Many other examples as well...    

Thanks, William.

Of course I'm not always satisfied with VSL legatos, I actually prefer the way the competition does it with crossfading into the sustains after the legato transitions. VSL legatos are sometimes a bit too quick when playing slower phrases. There are workarounds and this topic has been discussed in the forum for ages, so I will not go into details here. :)

Dimension Strings is, on the contrary, really good, and, as I said, the first VSL string library with a legato sound I like. I recently bought them and still learning and figuring out how to put them on the stage with MIR Pro.

You said “sul legato” in the Solo Strings? That's interesting ... On the product page it's only mentioned as “legato on the same string”. Which strings are they refering to? SUL G?

Posted on Fri, Apr 12 2019 21:18
by Pixelpoet1985
Joined on Fri, Dec 23 2016, Germany, Posts 160

Originally Posted by: William Go to Quoted Post

There are so many variations in VSL of articulations based on actual musical practice that are very important in performance, and it is difficult to make people see that before they actually use the library. 

Indeed, and I think it's wrong not to talk about these features. There are a lot of demos, but no information.

As a new potential customer you have absolutely no clue of what you get: What is a performance repetition? What is a performance trill? It's in the Full Library! Ah, okay, do I need it then? But it's so expensive... I'll buy from another company, because others say that VSL is “old” and “dry” and the legatos of the competition are much better.

I experienced the same and bought a lot of other libraries. They are good at some points, I like their slow legatos, but VSL is still great. New customers don't (and can't) see this point, because of the missing information and because there isn't a lot of talking about their libraries.

Of course, that's only MY opinion.

Posted on Sat, Apr 13 2019 05:21
by jasensmith
Joined on Tue, Jan 15 2008, Arizona, Posts 1469

Pixelpoet1985,

I think I may have misunderstood your original post.  Sorry about that  You're right about being in the dark on many aspects of the VSL world.  But it didn't used to always be like that.

In fact, I remember watching the old video tutorials, with the original Vienna GUI, and they answered many of the questions you raised. I could have sworn there was a video about the various Performance samples, what they are, and when to use them, etc. but I think those videos are considered legacy now.

Perhaps VSL should consider "rebooting" some of their legacy tutorials videos re-explaining some of these things?

 

Sorry William,

I know this isn't what you wanted to discuss in this thread so I'll check out now.


"If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then quit. There's no point in being a damn fool about it."
- W.C. Fields
Posted on Sat, Apr 13 2019 12:34
by Pixelpoet1985
Joined on Fri, Dec 23 2016, Germany, Posts 160

Originally Posted by: jasensmith Go to Quoted Post

I think I may have misunderstood your original post.  Sorry about that  You're right about being in the dark on many aspects of the VSL world.  But it didn't used to always be like that.

You don't have to be sorry about it.

You are talking about “legacy” videos... I don't know them, but this could be an option. I think most of the forum users here are customers from the very beginning of VSL, they know all of this, but new customers have really no information.

You can get some clues from the VI Pro video, but that's “hidden information” for me. If a new customer is interested in Dimension Strings, and comes to the product page, he/she expects to have the information there. He/she may watch the VI Pro video by coincidence – if at all.

-----

I agree that we should stop talking about this, because the thread started with another topic.

Posted on Sat, Apr 13 2019 14:29
by Dewdman42
Joined on Tue, Feb 27 2018, Posts 294
If there are legacy videos describing all the articulations available in the library I would find they very helpful also
5,1 MacPro 12core X 3.33ghz, 128gb ram, RX580 video, OSX Mojave, VSL (almost everything), LogicPro, Cubase10, StudioOne, DP9, Reaper, Dorico, Finale, MuseScore, Notion6, EW Hollywood Orch, Kirk Hunter, GPO, much more..
Posted on Sat, Apr 13 2019 15:08
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5325

That is nice of you guys to be concerned about it but actually I think you brought up a good point and it is in reference to the instruments in general.  I had never thought about that because I was using VSL since the beginning of the company. But looking at it from the perspective of a new customer you're abolustely right they would have no idea about this basic difference between VSL and other libraries. 

On the sul legato it depends on the note which string is being used.  The samples are not strictly separated by string but are on whatever string is possible for the given notes, for example a middle c to whatever target note on violin would have to be sul g, etc.  Also on higher notes, in VSL's usual practice, the most practical and normally used sul transitions would be sampled - ones that players would be likely to use, not just possible.   

Posted on Sat, Apr 13 2019 16:13
by Dewdman42
Joined on Tue, Feb 27 2018, Posts 294

As someone totally new to VSL, I can say that the sheer impressive capabilty of the VSL libraries is impressive to say the least but also a bit overwhelming.  I think many of you that have been using it a long time have seen new features come one step at a time and assimilate that new information at each stage...  To a newcomer..its mind blowing to consider all the possibilities and even know how to best get started, much less getting into all the nitty gritty fine detail of this articulation works best like this and that articulation works best like that...etc..  It will take me years and years of trial and error to figure out what some of you already know that way.  

So market is one thing..and while I think VSL's web presence is quite impressive in many many ways...I can see the point being made, but also as a user, I just bought it anyway based on reputation without even getting all the marketing you are talking about on the details, but as a new user....could use more guidance which those kinds of detailed demo videos would be helpful.  I think because the market is small, there are also very few videos on youtube or even on the commercial tutorial sites like Groove3, etc.. on how to best use VSL libraries.  So its really this very deep product...and that is exactly why i bought it!  But I'm also quite overwhelmed about how best to dig into it.  

5,1 MacPro 12core X 3.33ghz, 128gb ram, RX580 video, OSX Mojave, VSL (almost everything), LogicPro, Cubase10, StudioOne, DP9, Reaper, Dorico, Finale, MuseScore, Notion6, EW Hollywood Orch, Kirk Hunter, GPO, much more..
Posted on Sat, Apr 13 2019 18:04
by dbudde
Joined on Sun, Mar 02 2003, Seattle,WA USA, Posts 438

Originally Posted by: Dewdman42 Go to Quoted Post

But I'm also quite overwhelmed about how best to dig into it.  

If you look in the Music section, the demos with the red buttons have tutorial files you can download.  I'd recommend you look at some of these to see how others use the library.  VI Pro allows you to see which articulations are used even if you don't yet own that library.  Caution is advised in that this will only make you want to buy more libraries when you see you don't yet own a specific articulation that makes you go "oh, wow.  I need that one".

Posted on Sat, Apr 13 2019 18:59
by Dewdman42
Joined on Tue, Feb 27 2018, Posts 294
Planning on it. I already have cube full, appasionata and all dimension strings. I think they will keep me plenty busy for a while
5,1 MacPro 12core X 3.33ghz, 128gb ram, RX580 video, OSX Mojave, VSL (almost everything), LogicPro, Cubase10, StudioOne, DP9, Reaper, Dorico, Finale, MuseScore, Notion6, EW Hollywood Orch, Kirk Hunter, GPO, much more..
Posted on Sun, Apr 14 2019 11:48
by LenoT
Joined on Wed, Jul 11 2007, Graz, Posts 22

Hello all!

Does anybody know what exactly the new Dimension Strings Update from 2019-03-21 does with this library?
Somebody from the VSL staff...?
(Could not find a changelog.)

I am asking because when I installed the "25_Dimension-Strings-I_LibUpdate2019-03-21.zip" as described the VE/VI players (including PRO) could no longer find the samples!
But the sample files (*.dat) were still on that disk (SSD)!
(All other contents and libraries were found and played correctly.)

No rescanning of the paths in the Directory Manager helped (and also not overwriting the *.dat files with the earlier saved *.dat files from a different drive).

Only a COMPLETE REINSTALL of the library (including earlier Lib. updates) brought it back to action again...! :=(
(Done at present without the new Dimension Strings Update from 2019-03-21...).
(Fortunately I also had saved all the *.cab files, so no new download was necessary.)

{{despite these problems: the Dimension Strings library is really a superb collection! I use it quite much!}}

LenoT
Posted on Sun, Apr 14 2019 14:30
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5325

I installed the update and it worked like all the other updates, with no problems.  

Posted on Sun, Apr 14 2019 19:26
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7224

Originally Posted by: Dewdman42 Go to Quoted Post
If there are legacy videos describing all the articulations available in the library I would find they very helpful also

Based on Solo Violin I, not Dimension Strings, but the concept is very similar:

-> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m00W14KqqOo

HTH,

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Sun, Apr 14 2019 19:43
by Dewdman42
Joined on Tue, Feb 27 2018, Posts 294

Thanks Dietz!

5,1 MacPro 12core X 3.33ghz, 128gb ram, RX580 video, OSX Mojave, VSL (almost everything), LogicPro, Cubase10, StudioOne, DP9, Reaper, Dorico, Finale, MuseScore, Notion6, EW Hollywood Orch, Kirk Hunter, GPO, much more..
Posted on Wed, Apr 24 2019 14:36
by LenoT
Joined on Wed, Jul 11 2007, Graz, Posts 22

<RESOLVED> "when I installed the "25_Dimension-Strings-I_LibUpdate2019-03-21.zip" as described the VE/VI players (including PRO) could no longer find the samples!"

"25_Dimension-Strings-I_LibUpdate2019-03-21.zip" is now working as expected.

The problem I had when installing this update seems to have been caused because Vienna Ensemble had told me that I had installed the latest Version (17226). However, this obviously did not include the Vienna Instruments PRO player (which I always use): only later I noticed that there was already Version 17181 fo the PRO player, to be downloaded and installed separately.
Would it be possible to make Vienna Ensemble also updating the PRO player (if the license is present)?

Everything is working fine now (Win7 x64; and on Win 10).

So I can go on using this SUPERB LIBRARY!

LenoT
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