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protect instruments?
Last post Wed, May 15 2019 by Dietz, 20 replies.
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Posted on Sun, May 12 2019 04:05
by Dewdman42
Joined on Tue, Feb 27 2018, Posts 359

does anyone know if there is a way in MirPro to check a box or something on each instrument to protect or unprotect it from accidentally changing anything?

I am using the non-VEp mirpro for kind of the first time...and as I was adding a lot of instruments one by one to the stage I was using my mouse scroll wheel to move the scrollbar up and down the instrument list.  But every once in a while if the mouse happens to be hovering over the horizantal volume slider of an instrument, the mouse scroll wheel move the volume slider...  and this is almost always NOT what I want...and at this point I'm not evcen sure how many times I may have accidentally changed the volume of who knows how many instruments on that list when I was just trying to scroll the list up and down...

Actually I just noticed that this same phenomenon also happens on other panes, if I'm not careful to make sure the mouse is not hovering over a fader control when I use the scroll wheel to move the scrollbars of the pane...

So for one thing, I feel that is not the greatest UI design, I wish the mouse scroll wheel would not effect the horizantal slider on that pane, it is very handy and convenient to use the scroll wheel to move the scroll bars up and down, and almost neccessary when the list starts to get long.  But then its also incredibly easy to accientally destroy my mix when I use the scroll wheel to do that.

Anyway, any work arounds for this dilema?  If there was an ability to "protect" instruments from accidental changes..then that would probably work too, but ultimately I think I would prefer an option to disable the scroll wheel from effecting UI elements other then scroll bars.  I thought I saw an option for that in VEP somewhere, but it doesn't appear to be in the non-VEP mirpro...

Any advice welcome here..

thanks...

5,1 MacPro 12core X 3.46ghz, 128gb ram, RX580 video, OSX Mojave, VSL (almost everything), LogicPro, Cubase10, StudioOne, DP9, Reaper, Dorico, Finale, MuseScore, Notion6, EW Hollywood Orch, Kirk Hunter, GPO, much more..
Posted on Sun, May 12 2019 11:34
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7255

Does it help to de-activate this Preference in our not-so-great GUI? ;-) (see screenshot)

Dietz attached the following image(s):
MousewheelPrefs.png (128kb) downloaded 7 time(s).

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/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Sun, May 12 2019 14:03
by Dewdman42
Joined on Tue, Feb 27 2018, Posts 359
Originally Posted by: Dietz Go to Quoted Post
Does it help to de-activate this Preference in our not-so-great GUI? ;-) (see screenshot)


I had no idea that was the purpose of that preference. RTFM error on my part. Thanks Dietz!

5,1 MacPro 12core X 3.46ghz, 128gb ram, RX580 video, OSX Mojave, VSL (almost everything), LogicPro, Cubase10, StudioOne, DP9, Reaper, Dorico, Finale, MuseScore, Notion6, EW Hollywood Orch, Kirk Hunter, GPO, much more..
Posted on Sun, May 12 2019 16:56
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7255

Always glad to help! ... especially when it's so easy. ;-D

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Mon, May 13 2019 01:43
by Dewdman42
Joined on Tue, Feb 27 2018, Posts 359

Well maybe not so easy...problem still not solved.  

First, as I indicated above I am using the NON-Vep version of MirPro.  So the preference you mentioned is not available to me at all in the MirPro application.  In VEP that preference exists as an Instance related preference, and I tried to uncheck it there in case it might effect the MirPro application outside of VEP, but no it does not..

Any other ideas?

5,1 MacPro 12core X 3.46ghz, 128gb ram, RX580 video, OSX Mojave, VSL (almost everything), LogicPro, Cubase10, StudioOne, DP9, Reaper, Dorico, Finale, MuseScore, Notion6, EW Hollywood Orch, Kirk Hunter, GPO, much more..
Posted on Mon, May 13 2019 10:24
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7255

Which host are you using when you encounter this issue? 

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Mon, May 13 2019 14:26
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5378

I have encountered this exact same thing - a small problem but noticeable.  It is desirable to "lock" an instrument once it is set because they often get messed up in width or  level or whatever because they are so instantly "touchy" by default (a lot like musicians).   I will definitely switch that.  

Posted on Mon, May 13 2019 15:07
by Dewdman42
Joined on Tue, Feb 27 2018, Posts 359
Originally Posted by: Dietz Go to Quoted Post
Which host are you using when you encounter this issue?


First time I noticed it was while using cubase. The problem is in the separate mirpro app that runs though, I would expect it to be no different when using logic or dp. Will test later.
5,1 MacPro 12core X 3.46ghz, 128gb ram, RX580 video, OSX Mojave, VSL (almost everything), LogicPro, Cubase10, StudioOne, DP9, Reaper, Dorico, Finale, MuseScore, Notion6, EW Hollywood Orch, Kirk Hunter, GPO, much more..
Posted on Mon, May 13 2019 16:13
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7255

Hm. Here, the mouse-wheel zooms in and out in the Venue Map. Parameter changes by means of the wheel (i.e. whithout clicking) are only possible in the Instrument Channel and Output Panel on the right. Is this what you mean?

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Mon, May 13 2019 16:24
by Dewdman42
Joined on Tue, Feb 27 2018, Posts 359
The instrument list on the left is where I started noticing it first. If the mouse happens to be hovering over a volume fader then the scroll wheel changes the volume fader. If it is hovering over any other part of the panel and not over an actual volume slider, then the scroll wheel does as I would have expected and scrolls the panel up and down (if it’s a big enough list to have a scroll bar)

The panel on the right it turns out is similar in that if the mouse is hovering over a slider of any kind then it behaves as above. If you reduce the size of the mirpro application window so that these panels have scroll bars, then the scroll wheel will move that vertical scroll bar of the panel, which is what I would have expected, but only if you are careful to make sure the mouse is not hovering over one of the horizontal sliders

5,1 MacPro 12core X 3.46ghz, 128gb ram, RX580 video, OSX Mojave, VSL (almost everything), LogicPro, Cubase10, StudioOne, DP9, Reaper, Dorico, Finale, MuseScore, Notion6, EW Hollywood Orch, Kirk Hunter, GPO, much more..
Posted on Mon, May 13 2019 16:32
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7255

Ok, I see. So we are _not_ talking about the MIR Icon on a stage, are we?

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Mon, May 13 2019 16:36
by Dewdman42
Joined on Tue, Feb 27 2018, Posts 359

I will add that I use the scroll wheel all day long with many different apps including daws, web browsers, spreadsheets, word processors and all the rest and it is generally common practice for the scroll wheel to adjust the vertical scroll bar of whatever window the mouse is hovering over. It is entirely second nature for me to use the scroll wheel that way. It’s very unusual for it to be used for any other reason though occasionally you do see it used for zooming in and out, but it always throws me for a loop when I scroll the wheel expecting scrolling to happen and something else happens instead. That really ought to be with a modifier key when the scroll bar is used in a non standard fashion. It’s particularly frustrating in this case because the expected behavior of scrolling the panel not only doesn’t happen but you could be changing the volume sliders of your instruments and not even realize it. I mean for a while I kept trying to scroll that panel with the scroll wheel and it wasn’t scrolling. I wasn’t even looking at any tiny instrument volume sliders to even see that I was messing up my mix in the process of trying to scroll the panel up and down. So who knows how many times I may have accidentally and unknowingly changed volume sliders of random instruments while meaning to scroll the panel up or down.

5,1 MacPro 12core X 3.46ghz, 128gb ram, RX580 video, OSX Mojave, VSL (almost everything), LogicPro, Cubase10, StudioOne, DP9, Reaper, Dorico, Finale, MuseScore, Notion6, EW Hollywood Orch, Kirk Hunter, GPO, much more..
Posted on Mon, May 13 2019 16:38
by Dewdman42
Joined on Tue, Feb 27 2018, Posts 359
I was not talking about the player icon but the other poster has a good point about that too. I will play around with that more when I get to my studio
5,1 MacPro 12core X 3.46ghz, 128gb ram, RX580 video, OSX Mojave, VSL (almost everything), LogicPro, Cubase10, StudioOne, DP9, Reaper, Dorico, Finale, MuseScore, Notion6, EW Hollywood Orch, Kirk Hunter, GPO, much more..
Posted on Mon, May 13 2019 16:41
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7255

I understand your request, but rest assured that it is common practice for many of us to change on-screen-faders and the like with the wheel. :-) It's a question of habits, mainly.

Nevertheless I'll ask VSL software engineers to add the missing option to the preferences of MIR Pro's plug-in version, too.

Thanks for your input,

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Mon, May 13 2019 17:14
by Dewdman42
Joined on Tue, Feb 27 2018, Posts 359

Originally Posted by: Dietz Go to Quoted Post

I understand your request, but rest assured that it is common practice for many of us to change on-screen-faders and the like with the wheel. :-) It's a question of habits, mainly.

Nevertheless I'll ask VSL software engineers to add the missing option to the preferences of MIR Pro's plug-in version, too.

Thanks for your input,

While you're at it please ask about a "protect" feature in addition to being able to turn off the scroll wheel adjusting parameters "feature".  As William pointed out, its very easy to accidentally change something on an instrument becuase of the crowded nature of the stage, you could think you are clicking on one icon to change its position or orientation and accidentally change the width of another, etc..  It would be very helpful to be able to lock them to avoid messing them up..and same as above...if you accidentally change the aspect of some other instrument you may not even realize you were doing it until several clicks later, or might not even realize at all that you changed something you weren't looking at.  An instrument protect/lock feature would be very beneficial for that case.

Regarding the preference to turn off the current scroll wheel functionality, yes that would be very much appreciated.  Thank you.  

 I think in general the scroll wheel's well accepted and common usage is to scroll vertically windows.  When it is used in another capacity it is generally with a modifier key or perhaps it can have another function IF AND ONLY IF it will not cause confusion or conflict with the above mentioned standard expected behavior. 

For example, in LogicPro, you have the track list.  and on each track header there is a fader slider.  If you use the scroll wheel you can scroll the window up and down, as expected.  If you hover the mouse cursor over the volume fader, it does not change the fader.  It continues to scroll the window up and down.  This is its primary intended purpose and expectation by usersin nearly all applications.  Meanwhile there can be special cases.  if you go to the mixer, the scroll wheel can be used to adjust the mixer fader...(note it is a vertical item also which makes it more obvious).  However if you reduce the size of the mixer window so that there is a vertical scroll bar for the mixer panel, then the scroll wheel no longer works to change the fader, it presumes its primary and expected behavior of scrolling the panel.

Microsoft and Apple have both put out extensive GUI compliance documents which most likely go into great length about this, but they don't own the world and VSL or any other company can program their GUI's however they best see fit.  However, when the standard and common practice is to use the scroll wheel to scroll windows up and down, then any other use for it is going to be problematic for users particulartly when it is not blatantly obvious.  

In this case it is particuliarly problematic because the normal and expected behavior of the scroll wheel not only doesn't scroll the panel up and down when trying to do so, but if you're the user and you're trying to scroll the panel up, you are most likely not focusing your eyes on the particular horizantal volume slider that the mouse happens to be hovering over, so as you frantically scroll the wheel trying to scroll the panel, you don't even notice that you're changing an important mix parameter because the mouse happens to be hovering over some random instrument volume slider.  

You are free to have a differing opinion, but my opinion is that this is not great GUI design, sorry to say..  I hope VSL will reconsider that approach.;

kind regards

5,1 MacPro 12core X 3.46ghz, 128gb ram, RX580 video, OSX Mojave, VSL (almost everything), LogicPro, Cubase10, StudioOne, DP9, Reaper, Dorico, Finale, MuseScore, Notion6, EW Hollywood Orch, Kirk Hunter, GPO, much more..
Posted on Wed, May 15 2019 05:22
by kenneth.newby
Joined on Wed, Mar 19 2014, Posts 113

I'm going to second this. I think this is the single most common frustration working with VEP. Attempting to scroll through a large set of instruments—in my case using a two finger gesture on the trackpad—and indadvertently changing the volume level of an instrument. Most of the time I catch the mistake, but sometimes not. This is definitely poor user interface design. The same gesture must not provide two completely different functions at the same time. 

Posted on Wed, May 15 2019 06:59
by Lucy
Joined on Sun, Nov 26 2017, Posts 26

I have to agree, I've been caught out a few times like this. I like using the mouse wheel for moving faders and scrolling, but wish it didn't affect parameters within the instrument list on the left. The scroll wheel shouldn't be able to scroll and change parameters at the same time!

I never adjust the volume using those tiny horizontal sliders on the left, couldn't the scroll function be disabled just for that section (apart from still having the ability to scroll)?

Posted on Wed, May 15 2019 08:08
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7255

Like I wrote above - I already informed VSL software engineers.

For now (as a workaround) you could minimize the left Instruments panel's channel heigth to one line. Once the faders are hidden, you can't inadvertently change their volume any more.

Kind regards,

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Wed, May 15 2019 15:18
by Dewdman42
Joined on Tue, Feb 27 2018, Posts 359

Originally Posted by: Dietz Go to Quoted Post

Like I wrote above - I already informed VSL software engineers.

For now (as a workaround) you could minimize the left Instruments panel's channel heigth to one line. Once the faders are hidden, you can't inadvertently change their volume any more.

Kind regards,

Good idea!  But how do I do that?  

@Lucy, in VEP you can at least use the preference that Dietz mentioned earlier to disable the mouse scroll wheel from effecting the parameters directly, yes?

5,1 MacPro 12core X 3.46ghz, 128gb ram, RX580 video, OSX Mojave, VSL (almost everything), LogicPro, Cubase10, StudioOne, DP9, Reaper, Dorico, Finale, MuseScore, Notion6, EW Hollywood Orch, Kirk Hunter, GPO, much more..
Posted on Wed, May 15 2019 16:13
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7255

Changing the list's channel heighth is only available in VE Pro, that's true ...

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
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