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Future of Vienna Instruments
Last post Wed, Jun 19 2019 by William, 18 replies.
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Posted on Wed, Jun 12 2019 17:44
by PaoloT
Joined on Tue, Dec 27 2016, Posts 396

Dear VSL,

I like Vienna Instruments (Pro) very much, because of its flexibility. It may not be the right software for someone looking for a way to avoid looking into the engine, but it is perfect for someone customizing everything.

Customizing Vienna Instruments is a huge investment of work, time, knowledge, testing. A custom preset is a work of clockwork jewelry, of absolute precision. It would be awful having to trash away everything, and being forced to reprogram everything for a different player.

Can you assure that Vienna Instruments (Pro) will live for several years from now? I don't mean offering radical updates (it is very mature software), but with all that is needed to work flawlessly with any forthcoming operating systems.

Paolo

Posted on Fri, Jun 14 2019 04:31
by stephen limbaugh
Joined on Tue, Feb 23 2016, Los Angeles, Posts 198

I like VI too... and Synchron.  To me they are both necessary weapons in the composer's arsenal.  Last month, VSL did release a new VI library: Dimension Strings III.  So that's good!

Posted on Fri, Jun 14 2019 09:14
by PaoloT
Joined on Tue, Dec 27 2016, Posts 396

Yes, they have both a place. Synchron for the ready-to-use libraries. Vienna Instruments for the more customizable ones. The one shouldn't replace the other.

Paolo

Posted on Fri, Jun 14 2019 14:52
by Seventh Sam
Joined on Sat, Dec 29 2018, Posts 34

+1 

I'm curious about this, too.  VIPro is the best sample player I've ever used for dry samples.  I assume it will be supported for years to come given that they're still full price, but it's always good to have assurance when so much investment of time and money is involved.

Posted on Fri, Jun 14 2019 16:41
by Pixelpoet1985
Joined on Fri, Dec 23 2016, Germany, Posts 160

+1

And I want to know if there will be updates in the future for VI Pro: refinements or maybe new features.

Posted on Sat, Jun 15 2019 00:17
by DaddyO
Joined on Tue, May 22 2012, San Antonio, TX, Posts 310

This is a crucial question for many.

 1. Paul has replied to this question positively in the past, but certainly the answers have not been emphatic and definitive.

2. No company can guarantee support for a product ad infinitum.

Questions remain:

A. Is it worth it to continue to invest in VI instruments?

B. Will my huge investment in VI instruments become obsolete?

Inquiring minds want to know, but we may not hear anything definitive any time soon.

* * *

I've got to admit that one of the recent videos for the current Synchronized Special Edition made me better appreciate what Synchron brings to the table (especially at the introductory prices!). Is responding to this offer a step towards an inevitable future, or is it a step into a complimentary alternative? I'm still wrestling with this question. 

VSL Std Edition Core WW, Brass, Percussion
VSL Spec Editions Complete
VE Pro, VI Pro, MIR Pro
Windows 10
Cubase, Dorico
Posted on Sat, Jun 15 2019 03:44
by stephen limbaugh
Joined on Tue, Feb 23 2016, Los Angeles, Posts 198
Originally Posted by: PaoloT Go to Quoted Post
Yes, they have both a place. Synchron for the ready-to-use libraries. Vienna Instruments for the more customizable ones. The one shouldn't replace the other.
Paolo


I would make an argument that the Synchron Player is as customizable... mainly because of all the FX that come with the player. But aside from the Synchronized versions, the multiple mic positions have tonal and spatial capabilities that are beyond dry samples. Used in tandem with each other, it’s indistinguishable from real players if properly performed.
Posted on Sat, Jun 15 2019 03:53
by Dewdman42
Joined on Tue, Feb 27 2018, Posts 294

I do not think Synchron replaces ViPro.  its a different approach in lieu of using MirPro.  MirPro and ViPro actually do offer more flexibility with more work involved to do it.  Synchron is slightly easier to use.  If they got rid of ViPro, then what about all the people that use the Dry samples in all the other venues other then the Synchron hall?  

No I do not think this will be going away, not any time soon.  Synchron is just another way to get similar results as using ViPro + MirPro with the synchron hall roompack.  Instead of having all the power and flexibility of MirPro, you just choose which mic's you want..  Similar to the EW Play approach and similar as other libraries.  This is perhaps more user friendly and more similar to how other libraries handle it, for people that seem more interested in that approach.

I am not interested in the syncron player approach at all, I really like the power of MirPro with the Dry Samples and all the performance nuance that is possible in ViPro.

5,1 MacPro 12core X 3.33ghz, 128gb ram, RX580 video, OSX Mojave, VSL (almost everything), LogicPro, Cubase10, StudioOne, DP9, Reaper, Dorico, Finale, MuseScore, Notion6, EW Hollywood Orch, Kirk Hunter, GPO, much more..
Posted on Sat, Jun 15 2019 10:10
by jasensmith
Joined on Tue, Jan 15 2008, Arizona, Posts 1469

In order to survive in the market place companies must continue to evolve and innovate over time which ensures top quality products giving the custormer more choice.  The company that offers more choice to the customer will flurish while those that offer the same ol' same ol' will stagnate.  I think Synchron is just an example of that evolutionary and innovative process for VSL.

So with Synchron we, the customer, now have more choice in order to meet our needs.  Synchron has its advantages, while VI has its advantages, and you'll just have to decide which works best for you.  Of course, as Stephen points out, maybe what's best for you is to have both products because they compliment each other.

Going forward, my guess is more time and resources will be poured into the Synchron side of the house because it's new and fresh.  Once Synchron is up to speed with VI then VSL will finally release "Boys Choir Syncron" with "Boys Choir Silent Stage."  Take your pick.

Just a shot in the dark guess.   


"If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then quit. There's no point in being a damn fool about it."
- W.C. Fields
Posted on Sat, Jun 15 2019 19:50
by Seventh Sam
Joined on Sat, Dec 29 2018, Posts 34

Originally Posted by: Dewdman42 Go to Quoted Post

I do not think Synchron replaces ViPro.  its a different approach in lieu of using MirPro.  MirPro and ViPro actually do offer more flexibility with more work involved to do it.  Synchron is slightly easier to use.  If they got rid of ViPro, then what about all the people that use the Dry samples in all the other venues other then the Synchron hall?  

No I do not think this will be going away, not any time soon.  Synchron is just another way to get similar results as using ViPro + MirPro with the synchron hall roompack.  Instead of having all the power and flexibility of MirPro, you just choose which mic's you want..  Similar to the EW Play approach and similar as other libraries.  This is perhaps more user friendly and more similar to how other libraries handle it, for people that seem more interested in that approach.

It is my guess that the user friendly approach is what's in demand right now.  People like you and I may drool over the near infinite flexibility of a MIR+dry approach, but I would guess the majority of VSL's clientele (these days) want ease-of-use and results out of the box now that sample-based composing is becoming more and more mainstream.  The Synchron line is a perfect response to that, retaining enough of their classical, straightforward tone quality while placing instruments in one of the world's best scoring stages right away.

Originally Posted by: Dewdman42 Go to Quoted Post

I am not interested in the syncron player approach at all, I really like the power of MirPro with the Dry Samples and all the performance nuance that is possible in ViPro.

Over time, my hope is that either:

1) VSL keeps VIPro relevant/updated enough so that under-the-hooders can still use it+MIR or MIRx for years to come.

2) The Synchron Player is updated and refined to such a level that its functionality eclipses VI Pro in every way and makes it the obvious choice to upgrade to.  Ideally, this would include making Synchron easily able to integrate with MIR and its non-Synchron venues, although I'm not sure how that would work...is the close mic only on Synchron dry enough to be able to mix convincingly into MIR?

Posted on Sat, Jun 15 2019 20:35
by Dewdman42
Joined on Tue, Feb 27 2018, Posts 294

+1, as long as they don't try to charge me thousands of dollars to update my libraries for that.

5,1 MacPro 12core X 3.33ghz, 128gb ram, RX580 video, OSX Mojave, VSL (almost everything), LogicPro, Cubase10, StudioOne, DP9, Reaper, Dorico, Finale, MuseScore, Notion6, EW Hollywood Orch, Kirk Hunter, GPO, much more..
Posted on Sun, Jun 16 2019 00:06
by Eloy
Joined on Tue, Dec 04 2007, Valencia, Posts 9
I love the VI series samples with MIR and a breath controller ( Paul turned me onto the Hornberg controller = fantastic). You can be at Teldex (w/MIR) and all the Berlin libraries are in the same location as your VSL. Synchron libraries are at Synchron. I love all the articulations that come with the VI series. Why? I purchased Afflatus - great library for legato. However after listening to Afflatus samples I realized that with the combination of Orchestral strings/(4) dimension strings (different articulations) in one VI Pro slot - you can have the exact sound - with even better sonic quality ( sustains exp/sustains vibrato/sustains no vibrato - 3 separate slots for realism and all with legato = Wow! - not possible with Afflatus) . Can I do that with Synchron series? NO! Synchron has missing articulations. VI series with Mirpro = true flexibility. This is something VSL never showed in their videos. The videos showed how the the various ViPro functions operate- but did not show them in actual day to day usages.

I could go on but it is just frustrating that such a brilliant piece of software was never explained..........
Posted on Mon, Jun 17 2019 02:05
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5325

"... the multiple mic positions have tonal and spatial capabilities that are beyond dry samples. Used in tandem with each other, it’s indistinguishable from real players if properly performed." - Stephen Limbaugh

To Stephen Limbaugh:

So are VI  "if properly performed." 

Realism of performance and mixing does not come from multiple mic positions.  It comes first of all from total realism of articulations/performance and then from post production mixing.   And MIR is precisely what is used to create with dry samples what you seem to be intimating with   "spatial capabilities."   And MIR offers multiple mic positions anyway. 

Posted on Mon, Jun 17 2019 03:04
by stephen limbaugh
Joined on Tue, Feb 23 2016, Los Angeles, Posts 198

Well I can give a perfect example of timbral/tonal manipulation that can be done with Synchron that cannot be done with VI+MIRpro.

Different saturation+EQ+compression on different mic positions.

I had asked a while back if there were a way to split out the MIRpro capsules individually and there is not.

Spatially, 10 mic positions is preferable when doing an ATMOS mix.

Posted on Mon, Jun 17 2019 11:05
by PaoloT
Joined on Tue, Dec 27 2016, Posts 396

I might have a different idea of 'customizable' and 'flexibility' than Stephen, in this case. To be clear: I'm referring to the building of an instrument from the several available patches/articulations. This is a type of flexibiliy preceding any FX, and focused on creating a sound with the raw possibilites of the original instruments. At the moment, it seems to me that Vienna Instruments Pro is the only player with that degree of power.

FX is a great thing, especially if one is after hybrid scoring. While I also do that kind of score, I'm very much interested in 'classical' orchestra simulation. I recently tried to reproduce the beginning of Messiaen's Quatuor, and I was able to find nuances like grace notes alternating with portatos and fast legatos to give an impression of realism. This is the original mission of VSL: making a credible simulation of a real ensemble/orchestra. It's also what makes them so different than the others.

In this vein: I hope VSL will expand their VI collection with more extended techniques. Orchestral Spheres and Dimension Strings III/sul tasto were beautiful tries. I hope there will be more for this kind of 'flexibility' in the future.

Paolo

Posted on Mon, Jun 17 2019 13:19
by Seventh Sam
Joined on Sat, Dec 29 2018, Posts 34

Originally Posted by: PaoloT Go to Quoted Post

This is a type of flexibiliy preceding any FX, and focused on creating a sound with the raw possibilites of the original instruments. At the moment, it seems to me that Vienna Instruments Pro is the only player with that degree of power.

This is precisely why I decided to invest in the older VI libraries instead of the Synchron ones, despite Synchron being the newer one.  The flexibility and nuance of performance offered by the matrix concept and wealth of articulations as well as the advanced VIPro features like interval mapping, sequence mapping, time stretching, etc. are just outstanding.  

Posted on Mon, Jun 17 2019 13:30
by Macker
Joined on Tue, Aug 21 2018, London, Posts 36

I'm probably one sort of representative of the extended market VSL are now aiming to encompass - I'm not a pro composer and have somewhat limited computer assets. But I love to get under the hood and enjoy the manifold nuances possible with Silent Stage recordings in VIPro. I also use Synchron but don't as yet have any original Synchron libraries (except EO 2.0), nor MIR, and usually make my Synchronised library instruments as dry as possible. I have certain other, very recently released, truly excellent facilities for sound spatialisation which now I couldn't do without; they enable me to place Silent Stage instruments on a live stage with superb 3D precision and exquisite reverberant beauty.

Yet I'm also keen on big multi-mic live sound stage sample library recordings, and to date my best experiences in that regard come from using George Massenberg's astoundingly good and ground-breaking recording of Superior Drummer 3's core library at Galaxy Studios (with up to 11.1 channel surround capabilities). I believe percussive and plucked instrument sounds benefit the most from multi-mic live stage recording. Alas, to really enjoy the full splendour of big sound stage orchestral libraries I'd need some serious additional computer assets. (Well I'm dreaming of building a couple of VEP slaves with the latest lightning-fast Pcie4 slots and SSDs to match.)

While I'm up against these limitations they serve to make me more determined, more resourceful and more inventive in order to get the very best I possibly can out of what I have at hand. And these days the possibilities are HUGE. VIPro is in my view still one of the best enablers out there.

On my reading, all the viewpoints expressed in this thread have solid validity. But I'm guessing some substantial degree of resolution and unification of these viewpoints may well come when Synchron Player Pro eventually arrives.

(Oh and by the way, Paolo, I adore some of Messiaen's works and I certainly admire and respect your keen ambition with Quatuor. Mais mon ami, pour le chant des oiseaux, I'll stick to listening to live Blackbirds and Nightingales and all our other friendly feathered maestri out there, lol - forgive me, just teasing.)

Posted on Wed, Jun 19 2019 02:09
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5325

"I'm referring to the building of an instrument from the several available patches/articulations. This is a type of flexibiliy preceding any FX, and focused on creating a sound with the raw possibilites of the original instruments. At the moment, it seems to me that Vienna Instruments Pro is the only player with that degree of power.

...This is the original mission of VSL: making a credible simulation of a real ensemble/orchestra. It's also what makes them so different than the others.

In this vein: I hope VSL will expand their VI collection with more extended techniques. Orchestral Spheres and Dimension Strings III/sul tasto were beautiful tries. I hope there will be more for this kind of 'flexibility' in the future." - Paolo

 

Paolo that is exactly right - "flexibility preceding any FX" and "raw possibilities of the original instruments"  - that is what makes VSL totally different from all other sample libraries.  You can go into the the most basic performance of each instrument at a level beneath anything else, and so control the performance elementally.  I haven't found this with any other sample library and it needs to be continued.  I agree totally with your demand for extended techniques  - the sul tasto Dimension Strings are great, and to have extended techniques would make that even better.  Even though the Synchron series is great for people who want an instant approach to mixing etc., the Dimension Strings are the true artistic flagship of VSL because they have become more detailed and complex than any other sample library ever done.  They are not generic, not simplistic, but have the natural complexity of acoustic musical performance and the fact that one can control each and every player in the ensemble makes the possibilities for that library endless.  

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