Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

Forum Jump  
Many instances versus many returns per instance
Last post Wed, Nov 06 2019 by Dewdman42, 14 replies.
Options
Go to last post
Posted on Mon, Nov 04 2019 10:50
by santamorphic
Joined on Wed, Jun 04 2008, Posts 157

Hi - 

Has anyone found which is the best option overall when using VEPro as a server on a separate machine to your DAW?

A. Many instances (tabs) of VEPro with say just a single Kontakt plugin instance inside and just the main return to the DAW (maybe 120 VEPro instance?)?

or,

B. Fewer instances of VEPro with multiple (up to 16) Kontakt plugin instances inside each with 16 stereo returns back to the DAW?

I've been doing B for some years but hear that some people put a single instrument on each VEPro instance(???).

Thanks!

DAW Client: Logic Pro X, Cubase 10, Nuendo 10, iMac Pro 10/20 Core, 64GB RAM
VEPro Server: Windows 10 Pro x64, 4/8 core, 256GB RAM, SSDs
Posted on Mon, Nov 04 2019 16:28
by civilization 3
Joined on Sat, May 16 2009, SF Bay Area, Posts 1629

Technically the most efficient is one instance.

I don't use all those return channels, which is a bear to CPU.
I could actually do with one. I use several instances because I would be approaching the 
max number of automation parameters, and in Cubase all of that in one instance is unwieldy, with say 4 I can hide 3 and focus on the one.

The reason I do more than one stereo returning is I tend to mixdown a master bus with reverb separately but at the same time. I don't have a need to return 16 or whatever stems, I mix in VE Pro with automation, rarely touching even the volume of the instrument channel.

MacBook Pro 15,1: 2.9 GHz 6-core i9
32GB 2400MHz DDR4
OSX 10.14.5
VE Pro 7
Posted on Tue, Nov 05 2019 13:27
by Synetos
Joined on Mon, Jun 22 2015, USA, Posts 109

I have moved to using 1 large instance, running in local host mode on a Windows 10 setup.

I setup VEP preferences for 20 midi ports (320 unique midi channels) and 32 audio channels (16 stereo returns)

Then I assign all cores except 2 I keep for the daw. So in my case, 18 cores per instance

This has allowed me to setup my favorite instruments and just call on them when I need them in my project by adding a midi track pointing to the the assocaited port/channel, rather than having 100's of midi channels and returns in a massive template.

I use one stereo return for each catagory: Drums, Piano, Strings, Winds, FX, etc. So, I might have 20 different VST pianos to select from, but they all play back on the same stereo return to Cubase.

I use XLN Audio Addictive drums hosted in VEP. I use a channel matrix plug to separate the stereo channels into dual mono and route that to a set of bus tracks. This gives me the ability to do whatever processing I want and then just return the drum master bus to cubase on one stereo channel. Works quite well.

I have also experimented with hosting FX send/return channels with VEP. It works so much better in VEP7. My need has not been as great since I run Waves SuperRack with Mercury. Although, I have demonstrated to myself that I could do everything I am doing in SuperRack, right inside VEP. Performance was very smooth in local host mode.

Anyway, my system has been humming along just fine since doing this, and my Cubase Project template is basic.

DAW = Cubase Pro 10.0.40 & WaveLab 9.5.50
VEP Master = Windows 10 Pro - i7-6950x - 128GB Ram
VEP Slave = Windows 10 Pro - i7-5960x - 64GB Ram
Dell P4317Q & UP3216Q 4K monitors
Audio Interfaces = DigiGrid IOXs
Posted on Tue, Nov 05 2019 13:29
by santamorphic
Joined on Wed, Jun 04 2008, Posts 157

Cool. Thank you both for taking the time to share your best practices. Cheers!

DAW Client: Logic Pro X, Cubase 10, Nuendo 10, iMac Pro 10/20 Core, 64GB RAM
VEPro Server: Windows 10 Pro x64, 4/8 core, 256GB RAM, SSDs
Posted on Wed, Nov 06 2019 03:00
by civilization 3
Joined on Sat, May 16 2009, SF Bay Area, Posts 1629

You don't need to reserve threads for the DAW, btw.

MacBook Pro 15,1: 2.9 GHz 6-core i9
32GB 2400MHz DDR4
OSX 10.14.5
VE Pro 7
Posted on Wed, Nov 06 2019 03:20
by Dewdman42
Joined on Tue, Feb 27 2018, Posts 376

I prefer one or two large instances.  Stereo return.  I only will break off other return audio for a specific case where I NEED to bring them seperately back to my DAW, but actually I prefer to mix it all entirely in VePro whenever possible, I host MirPro there and it just all works nicely together there, plus I can reuse the same orchestral template in VePro across numerous DAW projects very easily that way.  I don't think it makes much difference either way in terms of CPU frankly.  I did a perfromance test a few months back with LogicPro and VePro, comparing one single instance vs one-instance-per-instrument.  There was only 1% difference in CPU utilization, single instance, was the better of the two but not enough to make it decisive reason to use way one or the other.  Choose the workflow that works best for you.

5,1 MacPro 12core X 3.46ghz, 128gb ram, RX580 video, OSX Mojave, VSL (almost everything), LogicPro, Cubase10, StudioOne, DP9, Reaper, Dorico, Finale, MuseScore, Notion6, EW Hollywood Orch, Kirk Hunter, GPO, much more..
Posted on Wed, Nov 06 2019 12:56
by Synetos
Joined on Mon, Jun 22 2015, USA, Posts 109

Originally Posted by: civilization 3 Go to Quoted Post

You don't need to reserve threads for the DAW, btw.

Oh? I thought I did. I will take it to 20 then. Thanks

DAW = Cubase Pro 10.0.40 & WaveLab 9.5.50
VEP Master = Windows 10 Pro - i7-6950x - 128GB Ram
VEP Slave = Windows 10 Pro - i7-5960x - 64GB Ram
Dell P4317Q & UP3216Q 4K monitors
Audio Interfaces = DigiGrid IOXs
Posted on Wed, Nov 06 2019 16:18
by Ashermusic
Joined on Fri, Jan 02 2009, Posts 540

Logic Pro X does better with more instances with less in them. Also, that  way, it is more like a score page.,

Composer, Logic Pro Certified Trainer, author of "Going Pro With Logic Pro 9" & "Scoring WIth Logic Pro"
www.jayasher.com

3.4 i7 Quad Core iMac, 32 GB RAM.,
OS X 10.14.5
Posted on Wed, Nov 06 2019 18:21
by Dewdman42
Joined on Tue, Feb 27 2018, Posts 376
Originally Posted by: Ashermusic Go to Quoted Post
Logic Pro X does better with more instances with less in them. Also, that way, it is more like a score page.,


I tested it both ways in logic and it actually performed better in terms of cpu usage with a single instance playing 90 instrument tracks vs 90 instances, one per track. But only 1% better, which basically means it performs about the same either way. It comes down to a workflow decision for which there are pros and cons both ways. One big reason for using seperate instances is because Logic Pro can only run one midifx script per instance, which can be kind of complicated if you have 90 instruments that all need their own articulation script.

I should add that the comparison I did, in the single instance case I did not bring back many audio streams and I was not using a slave. That means logicpro itself was doing hardly any work, nearly all dsp was inside vepro. I should do another test with a single instance and bring back the audio on up to 50 channels and do the mixing, including mirpro and everything in logicpro’s mixer for comparison also.

In the case of one instance per instrument, of course all the mixing is happening in logicpro’s mixer

Asher I still don’t understand your workflow case about one staff per track. I don’t know logic’s score editor at all and I know you have literally written books about it, but don’t midi tracks all get their own score staff? Why do you need an isolated vepro instance for each score staff?
5,1 MacPro 12core X 3.46ghz, 128gb ram, RX580 video, OSX Mojave, VSL (almost everything), LogicPro, Cubase10, StudioOne, DP9, Reaper, Dorico, Finale, MuseScore, Notion6, EW Hollywood Orch, Kirk Hunter, GPO, much more..
Posted on Wed, Nov 06 2019 18:43
by Ashermusic
Joined on Fri, Jan 02 2009, Posts 540

Originally Posted by: Dewdman42 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Ashermusic Go to Quoted Post
Logic Pro X does better with more instances with less in them. Also, that way, it is more like a score page.,
I tested it both ways in logic and it actually performed better in terms of cpu usage with a single instance playing 90 instrument tracks vs 90 instances, one per track. But only 1% better, which basically means it performs about the same either way. It comes down to a workflow decision for which there are pros and cons both ways. One big reason for using seperate instances is because Logic Pro can only run one midifx script per instance, which can be kind of complicated if you have 90 instruments that all need their own articulation script.

CPU usage is not rthe only way to measure how Logic does with more/fewer. Back when I tested both methoids exrtensively, as did Peter Schwartz and George Leger, we all concluded that Logic was more stable and spread the load throughout the cores better with more.

That said, that was three years ago and it is possible that things under the hood in VE Pro and/or Logic Pro have changed that.

Composer, Logic Pro Certified Trainer, author of "Going Pro With Logic Pro 9" & "Scoring WIth Logic Pro"
www.jayasher.com

3.4 i7 Quad Core iMac, 32 GB RAM.,
OS X 10.14.5
Posted on Wed, Nov 06 2019 18:52
by Dewdman42
Joined on Tue, Feb 27 2018, Posts 376
I updated my last post while you were writing that with a couple more comments and questions. If you can recall a specific setup that performs better with the many instance approach I would definitely like to try to replicate it.
5,1 MacPro 12core X 3.46ghz, 128gb ram, RX580 video, OSX Mojave, VSL (almost everything), LogicPro, Cubase10, StudioOne, DP9, Reaper, Dorico, Finale, MuseScore, Notion6, EW Hollywood Orch, Kirk Hunter, GPO, much more..
Posted on Wed, Nov 06 2019 18:56
by Ashermusic
Joined on Fri, Jan 02 2009, Posts 540

Originally Posted by: Dewdman42 Go to Quoted Post
Asher I still don’t understand your workflow case about one staff per track. I don’t know logic’s score editor at all and I know you have literally written books about it, but don’t midi tracks all get their own score staff? Why do you need an isolated vepro instance for each score staff?

First of all, I have not used MIDI instruments in years and have no desire to revisit using them. But this way, each VE Pro software instrument, e.g. Violin 1, connects to a VE Pro instance with 1 instrument and all its articulations, again  e.g Violin 1.

Just like a score page. 

Composer, Logic Pro Certified Trainer, author of "Going Pro With Logic Pro 9" & "Scoring WIth Logic Pro"
www.jayasher.com

3.4 i7 Quad Core iMac, 32 GB RAM.,
OS X 10.14.5
Posted on Wed, Nov 06 2019 19:00
by Dewdman42
Joined on Tue, Feb 27 2018, Posts 376
I’m not talking about using the environment midi instrument. With AU3 you can have you to 127 multi timbral tracks all feeding one single vepro instance. Wouldn’t each of those tracks have a staff?
5,1 MacPro 12core X 3.46ghz, 128gb ram, RX580 video, OSX Mojave, VSL (almost everything), LogicPro, Cubase10, StudioOne, DP9, Reaper, Dorico, Finale, MuseScore, Notion6, EW Hollywood Orch, Kirk Hunter, GPO, much more..
Posted on Wed, Nov 06 2019 19:02
by Dewdman42
Joined on Tue, Feb 27 2018, Posts 376
I think what you’re really meaning to say is that it’s the articulation scripting that is easier if you have one instance per instrument track, and I agree it is easier.
5,1 MacPro 12core X 3.46ghz, 128gb ram, RX580 video, OSX Mojave, VSL (almost everything), LogicPro, Cubase10, StudioOne, DP9, Reaper, Dorico, Finale, MuseScore, Notion6, EW Hollywood Orch, Kirk Hunter, GPO, much more..
You cannot post new threads in this forum.
You cannot reply to threads in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.