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MIR Pro with Dolby ATMOS
Last post Fri, May 22 2020 by Dietz, 11 replies.
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Posted on Sun, Dec 15 2019 19:29
by stephen limbaugh
Joined on Tue, Feb 23 2016, Los Angeles, Posts 248
Deitz and others,

For better localization in the Dolby ATMOS space, if I am using printed audio from MIRPro, instruments should probably have zero stereo “spread” (the little oval around the instrument marked “width”) correct? And is that function essentially the same as a Dolby ATMOS object size?

Has anyone tried sending the MIRPro wet signal to the bed and the dry to an object?
2019 MacBook Pro, 8 core i9, 32gb RAM. Heavy Digital Audio PC slave, 6 core Xeon E5-1650, 128gb RAM. Logic 10.4.8. Mojave & Windows 10.
Posted on Mon, Dec 16 2019 09:32
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7400

That's an interesting question which I can't answer easily.

"Width" in MIR Pro relates solely to the perceived stereo information coming from the readily postioned signal source on a MIR Venue's stage, without the IRs - they get mixed in at a later stage. In that sense (and in quite a few others, too) the way MIR "thinks" is quite different from Dolby ATMOS. The latter allows for movable individual sources which isn't possible in MIR due to the static nature of the impulse responses the engine relies on. I would refrain from seperating the dry direct signal from the "wet" output, as any positional information you would achieve from MIR Pro would be lost instantly. It doesn't make much sense to move the reverberated signal either - all spatial relation between this signal and the other "MIRed" instruments of the mix would be destroyed.

Personally I mixed a quite a few movie scores that ended up in an ATMOS mix, though. In one them I ran two passes of the orchestra through MIR, using Main Microphone setups from different heights (Pernegg Monastry). These two passes ended up in two ATMOS "beds", one for the bottom layer, one (wet only) for the top layer. Worked out beautifully! :-) But mind you, I didn't create any "movable" items for ATMOS objects like that, just static beds, so this might not be the answer you were looking for.

 ... I already mentioned the news in another thread: VSL is working on a next-generation version of MIR Pro at the moment which will introduce full 3D audio implementation (amongst other goodies). :-) That said I have to point out that this _won't_ bring us signal sources which can move accross the stage while playing, sorry to say so. 

****

Off-topic side note: There seems to be some strange pronounciation rule that makes US-Americans misspell my nick-name "Deitz" instead of "Dietz" regularily. ;-D .... I'll have to explore the reason why, one day.

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Mon, Dec 16 2019 10:12
by jasensmith
Joined on Tue, Jan 15 2008, Arizona, Posts 1564

deleted


"If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then quit. There's no point in being a damn fool about it."
- W.C. Fields
Posted on Mon, Dec 16 2019 10:27
by jasensmith
Joined on Tue, Jan 15 2008, Arizona, Posts 1564

Originally Posted by: Dietz Go to Quoted Post

 

Off-topic side note: There seems to be some strange pronounciation rule that makes US-Americans misspell my nick-name "Deitz" instead of "Dietz" regularily. ;-D .... I'll have to explore the reason why, one day.

 

 

That is odd Dietz because as children most Americans were taught the spelling rule " I, before E, except after C "

Of course, there are exceptions but your name is not one of them

And even when we know the rule we break it as my "deleted" post above is proof because I misspelled your name which is why I deleted it


"If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then quit. There's no point in being a damn fool about it."
- W.C. Fields
Posted on Mon, Dec 16 2019 21:44
by stephen limbaugh
Joined on Tue, Feb 23 2016, Los Angeles, Posts 248

Dietz vs Deitz:

This is my pure conjecture, but I think Americans see a less-familiar name, and when quickly scanning your name default to a more common use of how one pronounces the letter D (Dee). So, when typing out your name from memory, the "e" is placed first as people phonetically think of what's more common in english.

We have names/words like Diana, but a lot more like Dedrick, Dean, & DeAndre.

I don't speak German, but my suspicion is that there are a lot more words/names that start with "Di."

Regardless, my apologies!

=======================

So in terms of pinpointing, localization, in MirPro, that the less width, the more specifically the listener will be able to locate the sound.  For example, in stereo, if the width is super wide, you'll hear it in both stereo channels even if the source is moved far to the right or left of the MIR venue.  But if it's got zero width and is moved to the far right or left of a MIR venue, it is very clear that the instrument is dominate in the matching R/L channel.

In Dolby ATMOS, there is a function for objects called size.  At an AVID event the other night, I was told that the size essentially functions like a "stereo spreader."  The localization is reduced and more speakers are engaged as the size of the object increases.  For example, if you have a small object placed directly overhead, the only two celing speakers will be engaged.  It is very clear to a listener that it is directly overhead.  But, if you increase the size of the object, the speakers on the sides will begin to get that signal, then while it still sounds like it is overhead, it is more generally so, and it is harder to preceive the precise location of the signal.  Note, that increases the size does NOT affect gain/loudness... just like in MIRpro, the width doesn't affect gain at all.

To my original question...

Say I have a solo Oboe in a MIR venue that I want to move across the stage.  While MIR can't do motion, an ATMOS object can.  However, the prespective of the venue would get messed up if I just put the whole thing, wet/dry, in an object and moved it across the ATMOS space.

To maintain the integrity of the venue, but get movement from one side to the other, my thought was to split the dry signal to the object.  Then create duplicates of the oboe in MIR, 7, 8, or 9 of them strung across the stage.  The wet signal of that would then be sent to the ATMOS bed, and as the ATMOS object (dry oboe) moves across, the wet signal would FADE between each duplicate oboe strung across the MIR stage, and still maintain prespective of the stage.  Finally, reducing the width of the oboes, I'll get a more precise preception of that movement.

That way, in a piece of music, I can establish a "realist" prespective that has moving instruments in a MIR venue, but then as soon as I want to go "surrealist," I can go crazy with instruments flying all over the place. ;)

Does this make sense?

2019 MacBook Pro, 8 core i9, 32gb RAM. Heavy Digital Audio PC slave, 6 core Xeon E5-1650, 128gb RAM. Logic 10.4.8. Mojave & Windows 10.
Posted on Mon, Dec 16 2019 23:19
by Dewdman42
Joined on Tue, Feb 27 2018, Posts 544

I don't know many americans that would intentionally spell it with e before i.  Might be operating system spell checking kaos of some kind.  Or maybe many americans with bad spelling.  hehe

5,1 MacPro 12core X 3.46ghz, 128gb ram, RX580 video, OSX Mojave, VSL (almost everything), LogicPro, Cubase10, StudioOne, DP9, Reaper, Dorico, Finale, MuseScore, Notion6, EW Hollywood Orch, Kirk Hunter, GPO, much more..
Posted on Sat, Dec 28 2019 18:33
by stephen limbaugh
Joined on Tue, Feb 23 2016, Los Angeles, Posts 248

Dietz, wanted to ping you again to see if you had any additional thoughts on my last post.

Also, is there an approximate release for the full 3D MIRpro?  2020?  2021?

Thanks!

2019 MacBook Pro, 8 core i9, 32gb RAM. Heavy Digital Audio PC slave, 6 core Xeon E5-1650, 128gb RAM. Logic 10.4.8. Mojave & Windows 10.
Posted on Tue, Dec 31 2019 11:18
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7400

Hi Stephen,

sorry for the delayed reply, but actually I don't have meaningful things to add.

Of course you could try to achieve the impression of moving instruments on a MIR Venue's stage by cross-fading the signal beween multiple static instances (... I did this myself on several occasions), but you still won't get IRs from sources flying through the hall near the ceiling ... we simply didn't have speakers hanging above our heads in 15 meters heigth. 8-)

The MIR 3D update is planned for 2020, that's for sure, but I don't dare to make any more precise predictions about the actual release date. - One thing is for sure, though: Even with this update you won't be able to _move_ sources while playing, sorry to say so.

Kind regards & thanks for your ongoing interest in MIR Pro,

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Sun, Jan 19 2020 03:33
by stephen limbaugh
Joined on Tue, Feb 23 2016, Los Angeles, Posts 248

Hi Dietz,

ATMOS renderer was just released for Logic X so I've downloaded it and have been working with it in Binaural mode.

The answer to my question about localization is that to maximize it, each individual VSL instrument in MIR that you are assigning to an ATMOS object should have zero width... exceptions might be something like an organ which in real life consumes the whole concert hall/church.

In addition, to get max localization, the ATMOS object size should also be zero for each VSL instrument.  If you put it above 50 in the ATMOS panner, it will activate all speakers and "smear" the sound.

-S

2019 MacBook Pro, 8 core i9, 32gb RAM. Heavy Digital Audio PC slave, 6 core Xeon E5-1650, 128gb RAM. Logic 10.4.8. Mojave & Windows 10.
Posted on Fri, May 22 2020 05:07
by stephen limbaugh
Joined on Tue, Feb 23 2016, Los Angeles, Posts 248

Originally Posted by: Dietz Go to Quoted Post

Off-topic side note: There seems to be some strange pronounciation rule that makes US-Americans misspell my nick-name "Deitz" instead of "Dietz" regularily. ;-D .... I'll have to explore the reason why, one day.

To show I'm not the only American who has made this mistake, Alan Meyerson pronouncing it wrong here too.. ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qUgeyjJBME

See 53:50

2019 MacBook Pro, 8 core i9, 32gb RAM. Heavy Digital Audio PC slave, 6 core Xeon E5-1650, 128gb RAM. Logic 10.4.8. Mojave & Windows 10.
Posted on Fri, May 22 2020 09:17
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7400

:-D ... he's one of those who do this regularly, I know. Just a few days ago I had to tell Alan politely that the actual reason why he couldn't reach me on Skype earlier that day might have been exactly this, possibly. ;-D

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
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