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Posted on Sat, Jan 04 2020 16:18
by typemismatch
Joined on Wed, Nov 13 2019, Posts 11

Hello everyone,

I'm just getting started with VEP 7 - I have a lot of sampled instruments and load times in Logic Pro X were killing me since I project switch a lot. I thought VEP 7 might help but I'm running into a problem reusing instruments.

Let's say I have a Cello configured in an instance and I have 5 tracks in Logic that all play different midi/notes at the same time and want to use the same Cello, this doesn't seem possible without setting up 5 instances all with an identical configuration? but that seems wrong and wouldn't be manageable.

I also looked at multi-timbrel and each of the 5 tracks just route via a different channel to the same Cello - this works however, since I use about 3-4 articulations per instrument, my 16 channel limit is going to be reached very quickly and by mixing articulations (via channels) and my tracks (via channels) it's just going to get ugly. 

FYI, the articulations via channels are a hard requirement for EW Hollywood Orchestra instruments - things are not as complicated with Kontakt however the reuse of an instrument still seems overly complicated.

My only other thought was maybe there is a way to send key switches to VEP and have it convert to Channel changes for the routed instruments that don't support key switches.

Is there something I am missing on how to do this? thanks!

-c

Posted on Sat, Jan 04 2020 16:40
by Dewdman42
Joined on Tue, Feb 27 2018, Posts 489
Just send the 5 tracks using the same midi channel to hit the same instrument in vepro
5,1 MacPro 12core X 3.46ghz, 128gb ram, RX580 video, OSX Mojave, VSL (almost everything), LogicPro, Cubase10, StudioOne, DP9, Reaper, Dorico, Finale, MuseScore, Notion6, EW Hollywood Orch, Kirk Hunter, GPO, much more..
Posted on Sat, Jan 04 2020 18:23
by typemismatch
Joined on Wed, Nov 13 2019, Posts 11

The only way I've found to do that is with a mapped instrument and then you can't use articulation sets - I can't seem to find another way to route midi from another track to one of the multi-timbral track. I do have the 16 parts of the track as a summing stack so it gives me a Bus to route to but using Sends etc still has no effect.

Posted on Sat, Jan 04 2020 18:52
by typemismatch
Joined on Wed, Nov 13 2019, Posts 11

Ok, I figured out how to just create a new track under the multi-timbral track with the same channel as the target instrument and keep articulation maps. The only issue now is the instrument can't play different articulations at the same time ;) haha but that's a different issue. I might just use articulation tracks instead of switching some of this.

Posted on Sun, Jan 05 2020 00:37
by Dewdman42
Joined on Tue, Feb 27 2018, Posts 489

So let's take PLAY as the example.  You have 10 channels in VEP, each one has one articulation in PLAY on it.

Then in LPX you have 5 tracks, they are all using their own articulation set which channelizes the midi notes per articulation.  They are each using the same midi channel for the track also.  They should all go to the relevant channel in VePro just fine hitting the desired articulations per the articulationset.

Maybe I am not understanding your intent or issue?

5,1 MacPro 12core X 3.46ghz, 128gb ram, RX580 video, OSX Mojave, VSL (almost everything), LogicPro, Cubase10, StudioOne, DP9, Reaper, Dorico, Finale, MuseScore, Notion6, EW Hollywood Orch, Kirk Hunter, GPO, much more..
Posted on Sun, Jan 05 2020 00:52
by typemismatch
Joined on Wed, Nov 13 2019, Posts 11

Yes I can do that with PLAY no problem - maybe I complicated my question. Let's forget articulations, just stick with a straight instrument.

I have a Cello setup with PLAY on Channel 1. Violin on Channel 2 and so on.

In my song I have multiple tracks that play cello pieces at the same time, I can route all that MIDI to the Cello on channel 1 but it breaks the instrument because it can't play all those notes (it doesn't know it's different tracks).

So I have to setup Channel 1 as Cello, Channel 2 as Cello 2 and then Cello 3 etc and same for other instruments. You very quickly run out of channels. This is just exasperated with articulations.

I always thought one of the benefits with VEP was I can have an instance of each instrument/s and use it as I please but it appears it doesn't work that way. (i.e. VEP would ideally instanciate additional instruments)

FYI - I just figured out how to manually route PORT and Channel from Logic and without Multi-Timbral tracks - this means I have a ton more Channels and so if I have to have duplicate instruments it's not going to kill me.

thanks

Posted on Sun, Jan 05 2020 01:05
by Dewdman42
Joined on Tue, Feb 27 2018, Posts 489

Originally Posted by: typemismatch Go to Quoted Post

Yes I can do that with PLAY no problem - maybe I complicated my question. Let's forget articulations, just stick with a straight instrument.

I have a Cello setup with PLAY on Channel 1. Violin on Channel 2 and so on.

In my song I have multiple tracks that play cello pieces at the same time, I can route all that MIDI to the Cello on channel 1 but it breaks the instrument because it can't play all those notes (it doesn't know it's different tracks).

Well it can play all the tracks, but they will be sounding as if they are just one player doing it.  Strange things might happen if two tracks play the same note at the time time.

Quote:

So I have to setup Channel 1 as Cello, Channel 2 as Cello 2 and then Cello 3 etc and same for other instruments. You very quickly run out of channels. This is just exasperated with articulations.

Yea I get you.  You want to have multiple virtual players that are playing the same instrument sound, you wish you could get away with only have one instance of that instrument even though you have 4 virtual players of the same instrument.  

LIke I said, you can feed them all to the same midi channel, but if they are playing the same note in unison there will probably be midi problems.  Even if you seperate them to seperate channels in VePro...you will end up with sonic problems if and when they unison the same note, by the way.  You will need to figure out solutions for that, it is solvable, but even more complicated then you're already running into.  its much better if you're able to use a library that provides seperate sampled instruments for each player, such as dimension Strings, etc.  I don't know what EWHO provides.  

Quote:

I always thought one of the benefits with VEP was I can have an instance of each instrument/s and use it as I please but it appears it doesn't work that way. (i.e. VEP would ideally instanciate additional instruments)

I don't understnad what you're trying to say in the above, so I can't comment about it...

if you have multiple instances of the same instrument, whether its on seperate channels or not...then if you have unison notes happening, you can run into phasing problems because its exactly the same sample being triggered with slight timing discrepencies.  Generally, you want to avoid that, and if you must use the same instrument to double a part, including just a few lonely overlapping notes...then there are tricks around this....a subject for another discussion.  This problem exists regardless of whether you seperate them to seperate VePro channels or try to share one instance of the instrument with multiple midi tracks feeding it.

if you are 100% confident that none of the virutal players will ever play the same note at the same time, then I don't see any reason why you couldn't have multiple midi tracks feeding into one instrument with the sound you want shared between the multipel source midi tracks...but the sound would come into your mix as a single stereo sound...as if it were one player...which may or may not be a problem.

5,1 MacPro 12core X 3.46ghz, 128gb ram, RX580 video, OSX Mojave, VSL (almost everything), LogicPro, Cubase10, StudioOne, DP9, Reaper, Dorico, Finale, MuseScore, Notion6, EW Hollywood Orch, Kirk Hunter, GPO, much more..
Posted on Sun, Jan 05 2020 01:24
by typemismatch
Joined on Wed, Nov 13 2019, Posts 11

thanks for all the feedback, I think I understand it all now and I get the phase problem with duplicate notes - I avoid that but I will often have another player an octave higher/lower with the same notes so for these cases since I have port/channel options now I will just duplicate the instrument :)

Posted on Thu, Jan 23 2020 04:13
by PatriachAngel
Joined on Mon, Jan 20 2020, Posts 1

Originally Posted by: typemismatch Go to Quoted Post

thanks for all the feedback, I think I understand it all now and I get the phase problem with duplicate notes - I avoid that but I will often have another player an octave higher/lower with the same notes so for these cases since I have port/channel options now I will just duplicate the instrument :)

The only way I've found to do that is with a mapped instrument and then you can't use articulation sets - I can't seem to find another way to route midi from another track to one of the multi-timbral track. I do have the 16 parts of the track as a summing stack so it gives me a Bus to route to but using Sends etc still has no effect.

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