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how to replicate Matrices in the Synchron player
Last post Thu, Mar 26 2020 by Dewdman42, 28 replies.
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Posted on Sun, Mar 22 2020 11:18
by lunar_28664
Joined on Wed, Jun 20 2007, Posts 77

Apologies if this has come up before but I can't find an answer to what should be a simple question as I continue to try out the Synchron player. I sometimes have a situation in VI Pro where I want to add a matrix to an existing instrument -- for instance the situation where mute trumpets in the SE are a completely different instrument but I want to integrate the mute patches into the normal instrument. Dead easy-- you just copy the matrix from the mute instrument to the standard one.

But I simply can't find the equivalent in the Synchron player. What should I be doing? Many thanks!

Posted on Tue, Mar 24 2020 11:02
by andi
Joined on Wed, Feb 18 2004, Vienna, Posts 3240

Hello lunar_28664!

You can always add slots at any position you want in Synchron Player. Adding a slot to the top dimension is very similar to adding a matrix in the Vienna Instruments (Pro) player. It's also possible to copy slots and whole dimension trees by rightclicking slots or the empty space (root slot) in the dimension area.

I wouldn't mix different instruments in one Synchron Player though. All instruments have their distinct mixer settings and impulses. By combining instruments in one player, you will loose the mixer settings for the instrument that you have copied into the other preset. 

Here is some more information about custom preset creation in the Vienna Synchron Player

Best regards,
Andi

Andreas Olszewski
Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Tue, Mar 24 2020 12:14
by lunar_28664
Joined on Wed, Jun 20 2007, Posts 77

Hi Andi,

Thanks very much for getting back to me. I understood that you can effectively copy the articulations of an entire instrument by means of the "copy root slot" but if you paste it into the other instrument, it simply erases the original articulations whereas I want to add them to the original. Of course it's possible to copy individual patch slots and add to the "type" list but that's more tedious.

I take your point that it's anyway not ideal to mix instruments from the point of view of the Synchron player. The fact remains that in notation software, a muted trumpet is not a different instrument from an unmuted one and cannot be set up as one -- at any rate in Dorico. It is possible to switch MIDI channels (assuming using VE) to a different instrument in the Expression Maps but some have advised against that, due to a volume reset when switching.

Perhaps there is no obvious or ideal solution but I'm interested in what you would do im my position? Of course simply staying with the VI Pro instruments remains an option!

best wishes, David

Posted on Tue, Mar 24 2020 12:35
by andi
Joined on Wed, Feb 18 2004, Vienna, Posts 3240

Hello David!

You don't have to overwrite a dimension tree, when you copy the root slot. You could also copy the root slot from one preset to a new slot in the first dimension of another preset.

With muted instruments in Sibelius I would do as described in the "Optimizing Sibelius Playback" manual, page 33. There's no difference in this respect between Vienna Instruments (Pro) and Synchron Player. In Dorico switching the MIDI channel might be a good idea. I didn't try that yet.

Best,
Andi

Andreas Olszewski
Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Tue, Mar 24 2020 12:45
by lunar_28664
Joined on Wed, Jun 20 2007, Posts 77

that's exactly what I was looking for! I didn't realise that you could copy the entire tree from one instrument to a new slot in the first dimension as I'm still thinking a bit in VI mode. I'll try this out and if losing the instrument-specific impulses does prove to be irritating then I still have the MIDI switching option. Many thanks!

Posted on Tue, Mar 24 2020 15:23
by Bill
Joined on Fri, Sep 23 2005, Berkshires, MA, Posts 946

In a case like this, wouldn't the mixer settings be the same

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Posted on Tue, Mar 24 2020 16:33
by andi
Joined on Wed, Feb 18 2004, Vienna, Posts 3240

Hello Bill!

The mixer presets between an instrument played con sordino and the same instrument played senza sordino are different. They have different impulses.

Best regards,
Andi

Andreas Olszewski
Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Tue, Mar 24 2020 19:06
by lunar_28664
Joined on Wed, Jun 20 2007, Posts 77

could you possibly give an example, Andi. I don't see anything myself.

By the way, I've got my trumpet sorted out fine in Dorico, now as far as I can see. I take your point about Sibelius, incidentally, and indeed used your tips in the "Optimizing Sibelius Playback. I just don't use it for new compositions any more.

Posted on Wed, Mar 25 2020 03:43
by Dewdman42
Joined on Tue, Feb 27 2018, Park City, Utah, Posts 578

Originally Posted by: andi Go to Quoted Post

Hello Bill!

The mixer presets between an instrument played con sordino and the same instrument played senza sordino are different. They have different impulses.

Best regards,
Andi

Thanks for these explanations

Can you please comment a bit more about this.  The Mixer setup is in the "preset" right?  So if I load a preset and then don't try to copy any other presets into it on other slots...I should be fine, and I assume I can place any patch from any instrument I want into a slot also...but of course, the mixer setup would remain from the original preset...so the loaded in patch might not work right?  Do I have that right?

if I want to build my own multi, for any reason, I guess I would need to build a custom mixer preset that has all the channels from each of the two different instrument presets...  and then assign all the patches to slots...and make sure they are assigned to the right channels, etc..  a lot of work but possible yes?

5,1 MacPro 12core X 3.46ghz, 128gb ram, RX580 video, OSX Mojave, VSL (almost everything), LogicPro, Cubase10, StudioOne, DP9, Reaper, Dorico, Finale, MuseScore, Notion6, EW Hollywood Orch, Kirk Hunter, GPO, much more..
Posted on Wed, Mar 25 2020 04:20
by Dewdman42
Joined on Tue, Feb 27 2018, Park City, Utah, Posts 578

Originally Posted by: lunar_28664 Go to Quoted Post

could you possibly give an example, Andi. I don't see anything myself.

Here is an example.  I see why this is not entirely straightforward, so I will offer a production suggestion for VSL at the end.

I have attached images below, I don't know how to embed them in the post itself.

So the way you build these dimension trees is by clicking that '+' symbol, which turns the current slot into a folder and pushes the patch down a level (creating a new colum).

That's fine so far, but the problem here is that there is no way to create a matrix column ABOVE/BEFORE the Articulation column.  Not easily at least. 

So the way I accomplished this (compare before and after attached images below):

EDIT - simplified instructions in later post from Andi

As Andi said, Any considerations about the Mixer settings need to be planned carefully.

SUGGESTION FOR VSL

It would be nice to have a way to take a given column and '+' push a folder abvove it with new column in front it...in order to quickly add the matrix kind of behavior to an existing instrument preset.  It would need to take care automatically of preserving the colors, the keyswitches, etc..and simply push them all inside a parent folder with a colum inserted in front of it to hold the new folder slot.  If there is already a parent column, then create the new parent folder inside that parent dimension.

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5,1 MacPro 12core X 3.46ghz, 128gb ram, RX580 video, OSX Mojave, VSL (almost everything), LogicPro, Cubase10, StudioOne, DP9, Reaper, Dorico, Finale, MuseScore, Notion6, EW Hollywood Orch, Kirk Hunter, GPO, much more..
Posted on Wed, Mar 25 2020 08:19
by lunar_28664
Joined on Wed, Jun 20 2007, Posts 77

Thanks for your detailed description, Dewdman42, and I endorse your suggestion to VSL. It may be that I've misunderstood something as my procedure seems simpler than yours. My task was initally simply the following -- to merge the Special Edition mute trumpets and trombones contents into the primary instruments. I just did the following following Andi's suggestions:

1. go to the mute instrument and right click in empty space and "copy root slot"

2. in the main instrument, click on the + to create a new articulation in the articulation column and call it "mute"

3. right click and "paste slot". The entire mute tree structure is then copied into this slot. In the Dorico Expression Map, you simply add F#1 (assuming default mapping) to access the mute articulations you want to use.

I can understand that mixer impulses are different between different instruments and that they wouldn't be carried across but I can't see any mixer settings which differ between mute and standard trumpets. In practical terms what, if anything, is it I'm actually losing with this approach?

David

Posted on Wed, Mar 25 2020 08:30
by Dewdman42
Joined on Tue, Feb 27 2018, Park City, Utah, Posts 578

you asked about mimicing the ViPro Matrix, that's why i did it that way.  Its not 100% clear to me what you did, but its working for you then great!  I have no idea what you might be missing.

But my impression is that Synchron player is quite a bit more flexible then ViPro in terms of the dimension tree vs ViPro Matrix concept, with different approaches possible to arrange patches into a preset.

I think you can probably manually build the mixer preset yourself of two different instrument presets combined into one, but you'd have to figure out what mixer settings to use for each channel, which convo IR to use, etc..build a larger mixer, and then edit each patch in the dimenstion tree to point to the right mixer channel.  I think its doable, but would take some manual work and not easy.

5,1 MacPro 12core X 3.46ghz, 128gb ram, RX580 video, OSX Mojave, VSL (almost everything), LogicPro, Cubase10, StudioOne, DP9, Reaper, Dorico, Finale, MuseScore, Notion6, EW Hollywood Orch, Kirk Hunter, GPO, much more..
Posted on Wed, Mar 25 2020 08:37
by lunar_28664
Joined on Wed, Jun 20 2007, Posts 77

ok -- I see what you were getting at with your methodology and thanks again for going to the trouble. As for the "what am I missing?", this was more directed at Andi who warned about the possible downside to this approach. Perhaps he will chip in later with further clarification.

Posted on Wed, Mar 25 2020 08:49
by andi
Joined on Wed, Feb 18 2004, Vienna, Posts 3240

Hello Dewdman42!

Here are instructions on how you can move the whole dimension tree one dimension down.

- Rightclick an empty space in the dimension area and choose "Copy root slot".

- Rightclick the first slot in the first dimension and select "Paste slot".

- Choose a new title and switch for your new first dimension and give the first slot a name.

- Delete the other slots in the first dimension by rightclicking them and choosing "Delete".

--

Building custom presets with different instruments that get routed to different mixer channels is possible, but complicated.

--

David, the SYNCHRON-ized Special Edition presets "02 Trumpet I (C)" and "03 "Trumpet I (C) muted" have different EQ settings and different impulses. Nevertheless, you can of course combine them in one preset, if it helps your workflow.

Best regards,
Andi

Andreas Olszewski
Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Wed, Mar 25 2020 09:04
by Dewdman42
Joined on Tue, Feb 27 2018, Park City, Utah, Posts 578

Originally Posted by: andi Go to Quoted Post

Hello Dewdman42!

Here are instructions on how you can move the whole dimension tree one dimension down.

- Rightclick an empty space in the dimension area and choose "Copy root slot".

- Rightclick the first slot in the first dimension and select "Paste slot".

- Choose a new title and switch for your new first dimension and give the first slot a name.

- Delete the other slots in the first dimension by rightclicking them and choosing "Delete".

 

Thank you that is definitely easier!

5,1 MacPro 12core X 3.46ghz, 128gb ram, RX580 video, OSX Mojave, VSL (almost everything), LogicPro, Cubase10, StudioOne, DP9, Reaper, Dorico, Finale, MuseScore, Notion6, EW Hollywood Orch, Kirk Hunter, GPO, much more..
Posted on Wed, Mar 25 2020 09:05
by Dewdman42
Joined on Tue, Feb 27 2018, Park City, Utah, Posts 578

what exactly is the meaning of Copy Root Slot?  What is being copied when you do that? 

Actually I think I get now how you came to the idea of calling it "Copy Root Slot", because there must be a hidden slot, which is the root slot of the whole dimension tree.

Not immediately intuitive to me, but not hard once you know...

Thanks for the simplified instructions!

5,1 MacPro 12core X 3.46ghz, 128gb ram, RX580 video, OSX Mojave, VSL (almost everything), LogicPro, Cubase10, StudioOne, DP9, Reaper, Dorico, Finale, MuseScore, Notion6, EW Hollywood Orch, Kirk Hunter, GPO, much more..
Posted on Wed, Mar 25 2020 09:28
by andi
Joined on Wed, Feb 18 2004, Vienna, Posts 3240

Hello Dewdman42!

"Copy root slot" is the command for copying the whole dimension tree to the clipboard.

Best,
Andi

Andreas Olszewski
Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Wed, Mar 25 2020 09:31
by Dewdman42
Joined on Tue, Feb 27 2018, Park City, Utah, Posts 578

Yea I get that now, It just wasn't clear to me from the name "Copy Root Slot".  

"Copy Dimension Tree" would have made perfect sense.  ;-)

But as I said, there must be a hidden slot, which that command allows us to copy...so it makes sense when you know there is a hidden root slot.  

5,1 MacPro 12core X 3.46ghz, 128gb ram, RX580 video, OSX Mojave, VSL (almost everything), LogicPro, Cubase10, StudioOne, DP9, Reaper, Dorico, Finale, MuseScore, Notion6, EW Hollywood Orch, Kirk Hunter, GPO, much more..
Posted on Wed, Mar 25 2020 09:47
by lunar_28664
Joined on Wed, Jun 20 2007, Posts 77

Originally Posted by: andi Go to Quoted Post

David, the SYNCHRON-ized Special Edition presets "02 Trumpet I (C)" and "03 "Trumpet I (C) muted" have different EQ settings and different impulses. Nevertheless, you can of course combine them in one preset, if it helps your workflow.

Best regards,
Andi

OK, I see what you mean -- the EQ settings are somewhat different and when listening closely, there is indeed a difference. Mute copied into the normal instrument lacks something of the raw distinctiveness of timbre which you hear when the original instrument is used. I'll perhaps try the channel change and see if I can get that to work.

Posted on Wed, Mar 25 2020 18:12
by lunar_28664
Joined on Wed, Jun 20 2007, Posts 77

have managed to get the channel change to work in Dorico. Although the software does not yet allow you to add a new instrument to a player which is not already in the list, in Setup you can create a copy of something already existing  and just rename it, thus creating in the Play window the essential additional track for allocating to a different MIDI channel. The beauty is it doesn't appear in the score so you can don't need to do an instrument change at all -- simply create the articulation " mute" and the Expression Map directs you to the new channel you've selected. The Synchron mute instrument articulations largely map the non-mute ones so no additional programming is required. Just remember to include the reset to original channel command in the default "nat", otherwise you stay mute for ever!

PS I have not yet really checked to see if I can see any issues reported by one or two users that the dynamic level isn't inherited between the channels, resulting in volume jumps. If I can confirm this, I'll report back

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