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Synchron Woodwinds Vibrato
Last post Mon, Jul 27 2020 by Thorny, 9 replies.
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Posted on Fri, Jul 17 2020 12:13
by Thorny
Joined on Tue, Jul 09 2019, Washington, DC, Posts 14

I will start out by saying I am very much a newbie to VSL. I have recently switched back from Finale to using the Logic Pro Score Editor to write chamber music with solo instruments. I am using Synchron Solo Woodwinds and SE 1,  so far. I will also say that my ear has come a long way but I would still say it has a ways to go. 

Switching back to Logic and learning to use articulations and automation has been a revelation. The one thing that I am think that I must not understand correctly Is how to use vibrato. I do not hear a distinct effect when I use it. Sometimes I think I hear a qualitative difference in the sound, but I cannot make it have enough vibrato that I hear a clear warble. Is woodwind vibrato just very subtle or am I missing something?

I am setting ctrl/dimB to 100 and using cntrl/dimC to create automation curves for longer notes. Is there something else I need to be aware of or is my ear just too uneducated to hear the effect?

Thorny

Macbook Pro, OS 10.15.5
Logic Pro 10.5
Synchron SE 1, Solo Synchron Woodwinds
Posted on Fri, Jul 17 2020 13:36
by Mikecomp
Joined on Mon, Jul 27 2015, Posts 39

Hello Thorny,

The vibrato in the VSL libraries is not user-controllable, in that you cannot send a midi message to a non-vibrato patch and have it result in vibrato.  The VSL libraries have patches that have the vibrato recorded right into the sample, in other words, it is baked in and always present.  This makes the vibrato sound much more realistic because it is really the player playing with vibrato!  If there are notes that you do want to use vibrato with, and notes that you do not, you will have to assign a different sample to the various notes.  Depending on how expanded your library is and the amount of articulations you have, you may or may not have this available for every instrument.  

Also is the fact that some instruments do not use vibrato as much.  The clarinet, for example, rarely even uses vibrato in a classical context, but does, use it in jazz and dixieland.

I hope this helps.

Mike

Posted on Fri, Jul 24 2020 13:45
by Thorny
Joined on Tue, Jul 09 2019, Washington, DC, Posts 14

That is not how I understood the Synchron player to work. There are indeed discrete vibrato samples, but you don’t seem to use them directly, the way you would staccato or marcato. As I understood it from VSL support, you use ctrL/dimB to load the vibrato sample if the value is more than 32; it’s a binary switch. Then you use ctrl/dimC to xref that vibrato sample with the note you have specified with its articulation, blending in more or less of the vibrato sample with a higher or lower value.

if I got that wrong, I would love to be corrected! As it is I am seeing no real difference with values of ctrl/dimC. I can understand that some instruments traditionally use less vibrato than others, but I have certainly heard solo flute and oboe players In classical music using more than I am hearing.

Macbook Pro, OS 10.15.5
Logic Pro 10.5
Synchron SE 1, Solo Synchron Woodwinds
Posted on Fri, Jul 24 2020 21:17
by stephen limbaugh
Joined on Tue, Feb 23 2016, Los Angeles, Posts 254

Vibrato is controllable by cross-fading (with any CC you want) between non-vibrato and vibrato patches in the Synchron Player.  Some string libraries have expressivo patches that are performed transitions from vibrato to non, and you can control the timing of it with the time stretching feature on the Synchron Player edit page.

On the clarinet, VSL clarinet 1 is recorded more traditionally while clarinet 2 has vibrato options, falls, and little jazzy things.

Also there are some differences in the way the french oboe/E.horn are played vs the viennese oboe/E.horn... the viennese ones use significantly less vibrato, and in some contexts might be preferable to to the french versions.  I wouldn't cross-fade between the two instruments, but keeping both in your template ready to be called up gives you some flexibility.

2019 MacBook Pro, 8 core i9, 32gb RAM. Heavy Digital Audio PC slave, 6 core Xeon E5-1650, 128gb RAM. Logic 10.4.8. Mojave & Windows 10.
Posted on Sun, Jul 26 2020 23:50
by Thorny
Joined on Tue, Jul 09 2019, Washington, DC, Posts 14

That all still gets me no closer to answering my question. I bought the solo woodwinds mostly because of the vibrato possibilities. As it is, I could have gotten everything that I am finding useful in SE1 plus and more. I was planning to buy the solo strings next, but not so sure now.

Macbook Pro, OS 10.15.5
Logic Pro 10.5
Synchron SE 1, Solo Synchron Woodwinds
Posted on Mon, Jul 27 2020 06:34
by stephen limbaugh
Joined on Tue, Feb 23 2016, Los Angeles, Posts 254

So let me ask you this...

Are the flute vibrato oscillations in pianissimo the same as fortissimo?

With the full Synchronized woodwinds, you get more velocity layers, which adds flexibility in manipulating the vibrato.

EDIT: Rereading your post, are you are seeking a drastic oscillation, like a synthetic LFO effect?

2019 MacBook Pro, 8 core i9, 32gb RAM. Heavy Digital Audio PC slave, 6 core Xeon E5-1650, 128gb RAM. Logic 10.4.8. Mojave & Windows 10.
Posted on Mon, Jul 27 2020 12:14
by Thorny
Joined on Tue, Jul 09 2019, Washington, DC, Posts 14

I am looking for subtle but noticeable effects from the vibrato. There are many ways to get special effects in Logic! Actually, my main need now is to take the edge off of flute notes in the lower register. I find that longer sustained notes have a harshness that is very off-putting. A little vibrato would help.

I had not thought to test different levels of velocity, but I will do a systematic test of different Instruments at different velocities and report back

I have experimented a little bit with trying to isolate the irritating frequency of the flute tones with an equalizer but not successfully yet.

Macbook Pro, OS 10.15.5
Logic Pro 10.5
Synchron SE 1, Solo Synchron Woodwinds
Posted on Mon, Jul 27 2020 12:50
by stefan_telser
Joined on Wed, Mar 14 2007, Posts 118

I don't know if this is helpful:

Sometimes I adjust the vibrato in Melodyne instead of adjusting controllers in VI or fiddling with different vibrato patches.

Regards
Stefan

Posted on Mon, Jul 27 2020 18:56
by Thorny
Joined on Tue, Jul 09 2019, Washington, DC, Posts 14

Ok, now I have some notes where I can consistently hear a nice amount of vibrato. I created a new score and put in pairs of different half notes, the first in each pair with vibrato, the second without. Very clearly working!

in the score where I was trying to update old music with my new library, I still cannot get it to work. I created that file in Finale and moved it over as midi with no human performance, but I am betting that there is something hidden in the midi that is overriding the vibrato that I am trying to do. There is lots of weird controller data in there.

I hate it when I cannot get something to work because I am doing it wrong, but I hate it even more when I finally find out I was doing it right but something hidden was interfering! Thanks for all the help.

Macbook Pro, OS 10.15.5
Logic Pro 10.5
Synchron SE 1, Solo Synchron Woodwinds
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