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Synchron Strings Pro and 1 legato patches comparison
Last post Wed, Oct 21 2020 by eric.spichiger, 8 replies.
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Posted on Mon, Oct 12 2020 06:27
by eric.spichiger
Joined on Wed, Apr 02 2008, Posts 15

Hello VSL Team,

I have compared Legato patches from both strings libraries :

For SS1, patch 11F VI-14_Legato-Vib and for SSP, patch 01 VI-14 Legato

In synchron player, this corresponds to Legato Regular Vib for SS1 and Legato Regular Vib Normal release, Normal Attack.

I produced the attached WAV with the CC7, CC1, CC1 and CC2 = 127 for both patches.

I noticed that the SSP patch has a soft attack for the max velocity =127 compared to the SS1 one.

Is this by design ?

I would like to find back the sharp attack of the SS1 (not Marcato).

I know that I could easily incorporate the SS1 patch into the SSP preset, but I wondered if it is the correct way to proceed.

Thank you for commenting this.

Eric

File Attachment(s):
LegatoU0020patchU0020compare.wav (3,303kb) downloaded 24 time(s).

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Posted on Tue, Oct 13 2020 13:41
by t.j.goldsmith
Joined on Fri, Oct 26 2018, Annapolis, MD, Posts 2

I agree with you Eric, and I found this to also be true with anything in the Long notes-sustained, regular vibrato (normal release & attack) category in SSP. I initially thought it was velocity related (which is a different issue I'm having with SSP), but the slow attack is present no matter if I turn Velocity XF off or on. Adjusting expression, dynamic range sliders, and/or the attack setting in the Edit tab does not help either. 

Posted on Tue, Oct 13 2020 14:40
by eric.spichiger
Joined on Wed, Apr 02 2008, Posts 15

@goldsmith,

Thank you for your comment.

The reason why I posted this is to figure out where is SSP in the VSL products line.
Is it a standalone product which will be completed later to achieve fast attack in Long/legato samples or should we use the SS1 sounds to achieve this ?

It seems to me that SSP has a complete new approach in term of velocities layers.
Most of of samples have 2 velocities layers instead of 8-9 in SS1 which could explain why the variation of the velocity XF control CC1 has less impact than in SS1.
Furthermore, the names of samples have changed from Cantabile, soft to very soft or pianissimo, or from slur to agile...
It is a bit confusing without a few explanations about the purposes of each sample group.

Besides of that, I found the sounds amazing and beautiful for soft music passages.

Posted on Tue, Oct 13 2020 18:16
by Macker
Joined on Tue, Aug 21 2018, London, Posts 139

Thanks for highlighting this aspect of SySPro, Eric.

It does indeed appear to be problematic, in that factory presets don't offer any way of shortening the laid-back 'normal' attack of long and legato notes without introducing marcato dynamic emphasis. Stretch doesn't speed up attack enough. Nor, as T. J. Goldsmith noted, does shortening attack time in the amplitude envelope make any difference.

A few experiments in making custom x-fade presets have satisfied me that realistic fast attack can be achieved without causing marcato emphasis. But alas, that would mean a lot of work for those users who are prepared to tackle custom preset construction, while leaving many other users without any convenient remedy.

I think the issue comes down to this question for VSL: in actual practice, does - or should - fast attack always necessarily involve marcato (or sfz) dynamic expression? In the case of the SySPro library I'd say definitely no - though I'm not a trained string player.

Posted on Mon, Oct 19 2020 22:04
by sui
Joined on Sun, Jun 19 2011, Posts 9

I have run into the same problem, but I'm coming from Dimension Strings.

Even the normal attack long articulations need some time to get going which makes it really hard for me to use them in melodies with short rests, because the first note after the rest will always have this slow attack. There seems to be no way to start a phrase instantly without using the marcato articulation, which is really not what you want to do.

I've attached a picture which should highlight the issue. The upper waveform is SSP long regular vibrato normal attack, the lower waveform is Dimension Strings sustain vibrato. Both are playing the exact same note at max velocity/CC1. You can clearly see that SSP needs around half a second to get to its peak loudness. DS just comes full force right off the bat.

It only affects the first note because all the following notes in a legato articulation will all have the correct loudness right from the beginning (playing melodies with the non-legato sustain articulations is entirely impossible though). However, this also introduces audible artifacts: If you play the second note while the first is still "starting up" you will notice a sharp change in loudness between the first and the second note.

I really, really love everything else about SSP, but this slow attack on a first long note is driving me nuts. I've been mailing back and forth with VSL support but so far I've not been able to find a viable workaround. What we would need is some sort of "fast" attack articulation. Maybe something could be imported from Synchron Strings I?

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Posted on Mon, Oct 19 2020 23:42
by muziksculp
Joined on Fri, Oct 03 2003, U.S.A., Posts 413

Originally Posted by: eric.spichiger Go to Quoted Post

Hello VSL Team,

I have compared Legato patches from both strings libraries :

For SS1, patch 11F VI-14_Legato-Vib and for SSP, patch 01 VI-14 Legato

In synchron player, this corresponds to Legato Regular Vib for SS1 and Legato Regular Vib Normal release, Normal Attack.

I produced the attached WAV with the CC7, CC1, CC1 and CC2 = 127 for both patches.

I noticed that the SSP patch has a soft attack for the max velocity =127 compared to the SS1 one.

Is this by design ?

I would like to find back the sharp attack of the SS1 (not Marcato).

I know that I could easily incorporate the SS1 patch into the SSP preset, but I wondered if it is the correct way to proceed.

Thank you for commenting this.

Eric

Hi,

 

For Synch. Strings Pro. You can layer a Spicc. (i.e. VI-14 Spic) via slot crossfade, with the legato. 

I also dialed a smalll amount of delay to the Spicc. by adjusting the attack value of the envelope to taste, so that it blends in with the legato, and does not stick out too much. I also set a limit for the max amount of slot Xfade for the Spicc. to around 44, via the Control Page. so I can adjust it via CC 20, to my taste, but it will not accidentally exceed the max value of 44. to make sure it doesn't sound loud, and fake when using Slot Xfade fader. 

Hope this helps. 

Posted on Wed, Oct 21 2020 06:12
by eric.spichiger
Joined on Wed, Apr 02 2008, Posts 15

@sui,

Thank you for your comments which confirm what I've heard.

And you are right also to mention that it applies to both Legato and Long notes patches.

I hope VSL team will give us some explanations on this...

Best,
Eric

Posted on Wed, Oct 21 2020 06:28
by eric.spichiger
Joined on Wed, Apr 02 2008, Posts 15

@musiksculp,

Hi,

Thanks for this trick to approach the desired sound.
Generally speaking, I'm not a big fan of custom crossfades setup, because they require fine adjustment and the final result is often "unnatural".

In the mean time, I've merged patches from SS1 and SSP in the same preset to get what I need.

As VSL has not (yet) commented this topic, we have to play with the elements we have. 

Best,
Eric

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