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VEPRO and Apple Silicon M1
Last post Sun, Jan 29 2023 by Michael Canavan, 231 replies.
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Posted on Tue, Oct 25 2022 18:07
by Dan Wool
Joined on Wed, Jun 17 2015, San Francisco, Posts 36

Originally Posted by: Louis C Go to Quoted Post

..... that's great news that it's 'imminent'.

I wonder what performance gains might be expected ?

I wouldn't go that far. It seemed 'imminent' a year ago when I bought my M1. I'm sticking with 'eventually'. My official guess is Q1 2023

Posted on Wed, Oct 26 2022 01:52
by Michael Canavan
Joined on Sun, Jun 25 2017, Posts 34

Originally Posted by: Dan Wool Go to Quoted Post
I wouldn't go that far. It seemed 'imminent' a year ago when I bought my M1. I'm sticking with 'eventually'. My official guess is Q1 2023

This sounds like it's in beta

Quote:
We are currently in the process of finishing and testing Apple Silicon compatibility for our software.

Ofd course things can pop up and send it back to alpha but December sounds reasonable to predict. My issue is I suspect they just "had" to get all of their products besides VEP AS ready as well, which makes it slow to fruition. :-/ 

Posted on Wed, Oct 26 2022 21:48
by glasswing
Joined on Fri, Feb 15 2013, Vancouver Island, Posts 32

Well, they should know, we would be happy to pay for the upgrade.  I don't know how it is for Vienna, but there are a LOT of Apple users doing audio. - at least in North America.  When I started my studio (eighties), it was the only game in town.  It's possible there is a concern that, with the tremendous increase in machine ability, Vienna Ensemble Pro might be suffering from 'writing on the  wall' syndrome.  As in, there's not a lot of need for it.  Having a Mac Studio Ultra I can see that, but I would still use VEP.  
I just wish someone would find something better  - less rickety and cranky - than Kontakt. I would pay big money for that! 
Or for all virtual instrument folks to switch to dedicated plugins - as many are doing - which I AM paying big $$$ for.  

Posted on Fri, Oct 28 2022 13:18
by glasswing
Joined on Fri, Feb 15 2013, Vancouver Island, Posts 32

Case in point - I'd been wrestling with VEP and the dreaded Kontakt for two days - which is a LOT of time at 74 - trying to get the outputs working correctly.  Out of habit and being an old timer, I always do individual outs for audio.  Nothing was working.  In a combo of fury and panic I decided to try bypassing VEP and just running Kontakt - figuring my machine - Mac Studio Ultra - could handle it.  Sure enough!  After dealing with the incredible convoluted weirdness of Kontakt's tedious take on output architecture, I got it all working in about an hour.
This doesn't mean I don't miss or won't keep using VEP.  If nothing else, it's a great organizing tool and, once set up, it's incredibly plug and play.  
If I was a Vienna CEO, I wouldn't drag my feet too long on the VEP / Silicon problem.  
And I would design a better alternative to Kontakt.  They would have to widen the doors of their bank to make room for all the money they're hauling in.  The competition in orchestral virtual instruments is profound, but there's only one Kontakt and, to me, it's a sitting duck. 

VEP (licenser) / Pro Tools HD 2022.9 / Mac Pro Ultra 128G RAM / 2X Sonnet Echo Dual NVMe Thunderbolt Docks

Posted on Tue, Nov 01 2022 12:12
by HONEYHILL
Joined on Fri, Jan 28 2022, Germany, Posts 3

Hi together,

I understand, that it may be a bigger undertaking to bring VEPro to M1. But I guess upgrading the Plugin alone can't be that hard. I have the server on a Windows machine but I cannot run Cubase on my Mac natively, ONLY because the VEP Plugin is not M1 compatible. Super annoying.

Hope they will bring it asap

Posted on Tue, Nov 01 2022 12:34
by Ben
Joined on Sat, Mar 06 2021, Los Angeles, Posts 126

Originally Posted by: HONEYHILL Go to Quoted Post

Hi together,

I understand, that it may be a bigger undertaking to bring VEPro to M1. But I guess upgrading the Plugin alone can't be that hard. I have the server on a Windows machine but I cannot run Cubase on my Mac natively, ONLY because the VEP Plugin is not M1 compatible. Super annoying.

Hope they will bring it asap

Could you please double check? I'm not a Mac user and today is a national holiday, so I can't ask my colleagues right now, but if I'm not mistaken the VEP plugin itself is already M1 compatible for quite some time.

Ben @VSL
Posted on Tue, Nov 01 2022 15:24
by Michael Canavan
Joined on Sun, Jun 25 2017, Posts 34

Originally Posted by: Ben Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: HONEYHILL Go to Quoted Post

Hi together,

I understand, that it may be a bigger undertaking to bring VEPro to M1. But I guess upgrading the Plugin alone can't be that hard. I have the server on a Windows machine but I cannot run Cubase on my Mac natively, ONLY because the VEP Plugin is not M1 compatible. Super annoying.

Hope they will bring it asap

Could you please double check? I'm not a Mac user and today is a national holiday, so I can't ask my colleagues right now, but if I'm not mistaken the VEP plugin itself is already M1 compatible for quite some time.

Ugh! this is pretty depressing when someone from VSL doesn't even know their own products compatibility status. No, the VEP plug in is not Apple Silicon native, only the AU version will run in a native DAW. 

The solution of having VSL code the plug itself to be native first and foremost was suggested in this thread a couple years ago. It makes total sense, and would have been and ideal solution until the rest of the application could make it over, it did not happen. 

Posted on Tue, Nov 01 2022 15:35
by Ben
Joined on Sat, Mar 06 2021, Los Angeles, Posts 126

Originally Posted by: Michael Canavan Go to Quoted Post
Ugh! this is pretty depressing when someone from VSL doesn't even know their own products compatibility status.

Yeah, right, especially since answering questions in a forum is my only job...

Like I said, I'm not a Mac user, so I usually don't care about Mac issues and forward them to colleagues who are more qualified answering these. Today is national holiday, so most of us don't work right now.

Ben @VSL
Posted on Tue, Nov 01 2022 16:54
by Michael Canavan
Joined on Sun, Jun 25 2017, Posts 34

Originally Posted by: Ben Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: Michael Canavan Go to Quoted Post
Ugh! this is pretty depressing when someone from VSL doesn't even know their own products compatibility status.

Yeah, right, especially since answering questions in a forum is my only job...

Like I said, I'm not a Mac user, so I usually don't care about Mac issues and forward them to colleagues who are more qualified answering these. Today is national holiday, so most of us don't work right now.

So you're a platform loyalist, Ugh! Why are you the only person from VSL that is replying in this thread then? It makes your announcement of Apple Silicon in beta that much more useless that you "don't care about Mac Issues". 

Why would anyone work for a cross platform company and not follow their own companies compatibility issues, that have been going on for two years now? I'm sorry but this is one of the worst most dismissive responses I've seen from a company in years. I'm not trying to be harsh, but I have no idea if you're paid or not for participating in the forums, I'm glad someone does that's not even an issue. It isn't as much of an issue to me as the fact that you openly admit you don't know or care about issues for half of your own companies customers.

  You deserve this dressing down, pay attention to your own products issues on both platforms, and don't act rude when people call you out for not knowing two year old information about your own product. You're literally adding flame to the fire here. 

Posted on Tue, Nov 01 2022 18:33
by Ben
Joined on Sat, Mar 06 2021, Los Angeles, Posts 126

I am not part of our support or marketing team. This is a user forum; if you like to get support here is our official support channel:

I do my best to be helpful in forums just because I like doing music and I also like our products.
And just because I don't use an Apple device I "deserve this dressing down"? No thanks, I'm happy to leave this conversation. Have a nice day.

Ben @VSL
Posted on Tue, Nov 01 2022 19:22
by Dewdman42
Joined on Tue, Feb 27 2018, Posts 983

Regardless of what Apple has said so far, M1 users are still early adopters, especially with regards to audio production.  In my view, it's still most sensible to remain on Intel Mac hardware for serious audio production, for at least one more year.   This is not only because of VSL software which is clearly not transitioned yet, but numerous other software and plugins which are still not native.  You MIGHT be able to get some rosetta functionality, but me personally, I won't get an Apple Silicon Mac until I know that I can run pretty much everything I want or need to run in native mode without ANY rosetta shenanigans...which the industry is simply not there yet in many cases.  They will all get there eventually..including VSL, but all I can say is that you have to be patient.  I feel the pain for anyone that jumped on the M1 bandwagon, but what I can say is that my cheese grater is still running absolutely everything without problems...and that is a solution that anyone can still choose to follow today.  Even the current Apple MacPro is still Intel and will run everything just fine.  It was your choice to be early adopter.

Posted on Wed, Nov 02 2022 02:49
by Davka
Joined on Fri, Aug 10 2018, Mongolia, Posts 14
VSL... stupid annoying company. Expensive programs & Slow program support...
G.Davaakhuu
Posted on Wed, Nov 02 2022 03:29
by Michael Canavan
Joined on Sun, Jun 25 2017, Posts 34

Originally Posted by: Ben Go to Quoted Post

I am not part of our support or marketing team. This is a user forum; if you like to get support here is our official support channel:

I do my best to be helpful in forums just because I like doing music and I also like our products.
And just because I don't use an Apple device I "deserve this dressing down"? No thanks, I'm happy to leave this conversation. Have a nice day.

OK you might not be responding now, but I'm still confused as to why you wouldn't know that nothing about VEP is Apple Silicon ready, but are reporting that the beta is coming along? I'm sorry if I've come across as harsh, it's frustrating that the only person commenting about Apple Silicon support, doesn't know about the current state of Apple Silicon with VEP. The VST and MAS VEP plug ins are currently only possible if the DAW is in Rosetta, barring Bitwig which can wrap Rosetta VSTs like Apple does for AU. 

 It's a mess, and it will be a mess until VSL complete the transition, it's why you see people talking about other solutions in this thread, or the guy above my post just slamming VSL. It's really too bad, because I'm probably not alone in having kept a Mac Pro with 12 cores being a great server withe an Apple Silcon laptop that will be a great DAW host once everything is Apple Silicon ready. 

Posted on Wed, Nov 02 2022 16:29
by Michael Canavan
Joined on Sun, Jun 25 2017, Posts 34

Originally Posted by: Dewdman42 Go to Quoted Post

Regardless of what Apple has said so far, M1 users are still early adopters, especially with regards to audio production.  In my view, it's still most sensible to remain on Intel Mac hardware for serious audio production, for at least one more year.   This is not only because of VSL software which is clearly not transitioned yet, but numerous other software and plugins which are still not native.  You MIGHT be able to get some rosetta functionality, but me personally, I won't get an Apple Silicon Mac until I know that I can run pretty much everything I want or need to run in native mode without ANY rosetta shenanigans...which the industry is simply not there yet in many cases.  They will all get there eventually..including VSL, but all I can say is that you have to be patient.  I feel the pain for anyone that jumped on the M1 bandwagon, but what I can say is that my cheese grater is still running absolutely everything without problems...and that is a solution that anyone can still choose to follow today.  Even the current Apple MacPro is still Intel and will run everything just fine.  It was your choice to be early adopter.

While I can mostly agree with this, but it's been 2 1/2 years since Apple Silicon was announced, along with developer Minis, and 2 years since the first M1 Macs came out. I was around for the first transition from PPC to Intel machines, and I remember only NI dragging their feet a little, they had foolishly not headed Apples warnings to switch from Codewarrior to to Xcode. 

  Part of the problem is Rosetta this time works really pretty well, a maybe 10% CPU hit on average, but it doesn't work at all for VST and MAS if the DAW is not in Rosetta. So the hit is compounded when your DAW is also in Rosetta. Anyway I thought the VEP plug in would be a rather quick port considering the opportunity for VSL to pick up new customers as people used VEP to transition, but that's not the case apparently. 

Posted on Wed, Nov 02 2022 17:43
by glasswing
Joined on Fri, Feb 15 2013, Vancouver Island, Posts 32

I don't think we should hit Ben too hard.  He's just a screener - a relay for which messages seem possibly important.  More similar to the greeter outside a big box store. 
And Ben - I use VEP with a Mac Studio Ultra with Pro Tools running in Rosetta and - even running in Rosetta its' so far beyond my old Mac Pro that, to me, waiting is crazy.  Everything that was awful and time consuming before is gone now.   
I can do massive orchestral VI sessions without any crashing etc.  
The push to Apple Silicon is important though.  Pro Tools is Alpha testing their M1 compatible version, so it will be out early in 2023.  When that happens, I might not be able to use VEP at all

Posted on Wed, Nov 02 2022 17:44
by evang42
Joined on Fri, Apr 08 2011, Posts 32

Originally Posted by: Ben Go to Quoted Post

I am not part of our support or marketing team. This is a user forum; if you like to get support here is our official support channel:

I do my best to be helpful in forums just because I like doing music and I also like our products.
And just because I don't use an Apple device I "deserve this dressing down"? No thanks, I'm happy to leave this conversation. Have a nice day.

Hi Ben, I just wanted to say that while i share Michael's frustration about how long it's taking VSL to get an AS Native VEP going, that frustration is ENTIRELY directed at VSL and I have nothing but gratitude for your chiming in with an update when all we've been getting is silence from VSL for months.  While I'm frustrated by the VSL silence that's not your fault!! and I think there's a bit of unfair "shooting of the messenger" going on here.  I hope you'll continue to post on this forum and keep us updated as it really helps and does not go unappreciated.  Thanks, Evan.

Posted on Thu, Nov 03 2022 04:11
by Dewdman42
Joined on Tue, Feb 27 2018, Posts 983

Originally Posted by: Michael Canavan Go to Quoted Post

While I can mostly agree with this, but it's been 2 1/2 years since Apple Silicon was announced, along with developer Minis, and 2 years since the first M1 Macs came out. I was around for the first transition from PPC to Intel machines, and I remember only NI dragging their feet a little, they had foolishly not headed Apples warnings to switch from Codewarrior to to Xcode. 

  Part of the problem is Rosetta this time works really pretty well, a maybe 10% CPU hit on average, but it doesn't work at all for VST and MAS if the DAW is not in Rosetta. So the hit is compounded when your DAW is also in Rosetta. Anyway I thought the VEP plug in would be a rather quick port considering the opportunity for VSL to pick up new customers as people used VEP to transition, but that's not the case apparently. 

The last transition from PPC to intel was not nearly as well executed.  Many people, including me, were left high and dry with expensive PPC Macs that would not run the latest tools and become worthless pieces of junk within one year.

This time around Apple handled things much better and the end result is that it is M1 users who ware still wanting and waiting for all of the software world to catch up.  Apple did things in such a way that Intel users would not be left behind..and so far 1.5 years later my Intel machine is still going very strong and still preferable to M1.  You must remember that software developers have to earn money and it costs them money to do any software change, including Apple Silicon.  They will always have to weigh all the factors of what is most important with the resources they have and do what is best for their business....this may mean that M1 users, whom are still the minority...have to keep waiting while other priorities still address the majority of users still using Intel.

I personally am thankful that Apple handled this transition much better then what they did last time from PPC.  We did not get left in the dust and all of us can transition to M1 in a more graceful manner when its time.  

Anyone that jumps onto M1 early and then complains that the software isn't ready, should look in the mirror and ask themselves why they purchased a new M1 before the software was ready.

Posted on Thu, Nov 03 2022 12:16
by dmansfield
Joined on Tue, Sep 21 2004, New Jersey, Posts 17

I jumped in with Silicon because I need it for my workflow, my DAW no longer fully supports my 5,1 Mac Pro. I'm trying to figure out a strategy for getting along without a native M1 version of VEPro 7.

I've seen mention of the AU plugin working natively under Silicon-- is that correct? If so, is it possible to use it in Pro Tools and DP11? I imagine not, as people would be doing it, but if so, I could still run all my VSL software on my 5,1 slave.

If not I can run everything that's NOT vsl on my Mac Studio and give up my vsl libraries. Unless there's some convoluted way to get MIDI to VEPro 7 on my slave using Audio MIDI and the MIDI networking feature.

For example, could I run some kind of simple DAW in input mode on the 5,1 slave with the VEPro 7 plugin running, connected to the VEPro server on the same slave, and then send MIDI to the DAW from my Mac Studio? I could get the audio back to the Mac Studio either with Bidule or ADAT lightpipe between the slave interface and the master interface (MoTU 828es and 2408 Mk III). Is this crazy???

Posted on Thu, Nov 03 2022 15:51
by evang42
Joined on Fri, Apr 08 2011, Posts 32

Originally Posted by: dmansfield Go to Quoted Post

I jumped in with Silicon because I need it for my workflow, my DAW no longer fully supports my 5,1 Mac Pro. I'm trying to figure out a strategy for getting along without a native M1 version of VEPro 7.

I've seen mention of the AU plugin working natively under Silicon-- is that correct? If so, is it possible to use it in Pro Tools and DP11? I imagine not, as people would be doing it, but if so, I could still run all my VSL software on my 5,1 slave.

If not I can run everything that's NOT vsl on my Mac Studio and give up my vsl libraries. Unless there's some convoluted way to get MIDI to VEPro 7 on my slave using Audio MIDI and the MIDI networking feature.

For example, could I run some kind of simple DAW in input mode on the 5,1 slave with the VEPro 7 plugin running, connected to the VEPro server on the same slave, and then send MIDI to the DAW from my Mac Studio? I could get the audio back to the Mac Studio either with Bidule or ADAT lightpipe between the slave interface and the master interface (MoTU 828es and 2408 Mk III). Is this crazy???

I can in fact confirm that AU plugin of VEP7 WILL work in DP when DP is run in native mode.  Just not MAS.  So you could build a template entirely out of AU instances of VEP connected to your server.  The problem with that of course is just that AU plugins won't allow for multiple (up to 48) midi ports like MAS so you need A LOT more of them if you intend on building a large template.

Posted on Thu, Nov 03 2022 17:29
by Dewdman42
Joined on Tue, Feb 27 2018, Posts 983

Originally Posted by: dmansfield Go to Quoted Post

I jumped in with Silicon because I need it for my workflow, my DAW no longer fully supports my 5,1 Mac Pro.

which DAW?  My 5,1 is still working quite well

Quote:

I'm trying to figure out a strategy for getting along without a native M1 version of VEPro 7.

I've seen mention of the AU plugin working natively under Silicon-- is that correct? If so, is it possible to use it in Pro Tools and DP11? I imagine not, as people would be doing it, but if so, I could still run all my VSL software on my 5,1 slave.

That is absolutely what I would do, but I can give no advice about the M1 side and the plugin, which to use.

Quote:

Unless there's some convoluted way to get MIDI to VEPro 7 on my slave using Audio MIDI and the MIDI networking feature.

You could use The non pro version of Vienna Ensemble on your 5,1.  Send network midi to it...and mix the audio back into your M1 or wherever using various digital audio means rather then through the plugin...there might be some latency in there and you lose the elegant mechanism whereby normally VePro can do Plugin Delay Compensation to sync everything up perfectly.  But its certainly doable until VePro catches up with Apple Silicon.

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