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  • Recommending "Patchbay" AU3 Templates

    I'm convinced that the initial idea of dedicating one Logic Pro Software Instrument for each and every AU3 MIDI channel, can and should be abandoned.

    Why?

    First, when configured this way, Logic's AU3-committed Software Instruments can't accommodate more than 127 MIDI channels per VEP instance, and Logic itself can't accommodate more than 1000 Software Instruments. Altogether that can impose pretty severe constraints on serious professional work. Will Apple soon open up these built-in limitations? I'm certainly not betting on it.

    Second, in Logic, Software Instruments have a relatively heavy computer-resource footprint, compared to the Standard and Multi MIDI Instruments, AND there's no built-in maximum for these MIDI Instruments!

    The solution?

    As things stand right now, Logic users can catch up and compete with the big-gun Cubase users. For this mission I recommend a new take on the old-school DAW configuration: i.e. using Standard (single channel) and/or Multi-channel MIDI Instruments cabled in the Environment to 16-Channel AU3 port-committed Software Instruments.

    The Environment is Logic's mightiest advantage over all other DAWs. No Logic user who already has the brainpower and gumption to compose and midistrate need be too scared to get in there and take advantage of it; this approach does not venture beyond Environment basics. Moreover, a huge advantage of this approach is that it's not necessary to 'hardwire' an entire template permanently; we should be able to change our template configuration without the serious ball-ache of a major template rebuild every time.

    Hence I'm working with a "Patchbay" AU3 template in Logic's Environment such that I can readily patch any of my current maximum of 800 MIDI tracks (mostly grouped in 16-channel "kits") to any of 160 AU3 ports, simply by cabling MIDI instruments to the appropriate Sofware Instruments in the Environment.

    I've chosen to build into my current template 10 Software Instrument AU3 ports (all 16-channel) per VEP instance; i.e. 2560 potential MIDI channels spanning 16 VEP Instances. But that's just my preference, and my template is not set in concrete. (BTW I'd love to see a decent parametric Tradeoff Study on optimal combinations of MIDI channels vs ports vs Instances.)

    I've limited myself to 800 MIDI tracks because I also have to accommodate a very large Environment subsystem dedicated to Orchestral Intonation (which has been using the Patchbay approach for about 10 years though only recently with VEP) and my one and only computer is showing its age (2017 iMac 4.2GHz 7700K i7 4-core 64GB). However, for pro users with a powerful VEP network, I see no reason why a Patchbay AU3 template with, say, 2000 MIDI channels patchable into, say, 300 VEP Ports (4800 potential MIDI channels), shouldn't be feasible. And that's not even close to the upper limits for Logic.


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    @Another User said:

    The solution?

    Hence I'm working with a "Patchbay" AU3 template in Logic's Environment such that I can readily patch any of my current maximum of 800 MIDI tracks (mostly grouped in 16-channel "kits") to any of 160 AU3 ports, simply by cabling MIDI instruments to the appropriate Sofware Instruments in the Environment. I've chosen to build into my current template 10 Software Instrument AU3 ports (all 16-channel) per VEP instance; i.e. 2560 potential MIDI channels spanning 16 VEP Instances. But that's just my preference, and my template is not set in concrete. (BTW I'd love to see a decent parametric Tradeoff Study on optimal combinations of MIDI channels vs ports vs Instances.)

    I've limited myself to 800 MIDI tracks because I also have to accommodate a very large Environment subsystem dedicated to Orchestral Intonation (which has been using the Patchbay approach for about 10 years though only recently with VEP) and my one and only computer is showing its age (2017 iMac 4.2GHz 7700K i7 4-core 64GB). However, for pro users with a powerful VEP network, I see no reason why a Patchbay AU3 template with, say, 2000 MIDI channels patchable into, say, 300 VEP Ports (4800 potential MIDI channels), shouldn't be feasible. And that's not even close to the upper limits for Logic.

    Not entirely sure exactly what you're doing but I'd be interested to see it in action.  The environment has pros and cons.  In certain tasks its a wonderful thing, but its not always necessary.

    Just to clarify about the AU3 limitation of 127.  The precise limitation there is that you cannot have more than 127 of the internal multi-timbral channel strips created for one main instrument channel.  Those are created automatically when you create multi-timbral tracks in LogicPro.  If you try to create 128, then LogicPro literally blows up.  But those can be spread across 48 midi ports however you wish...and if you pipe them through an environment multi-instrument, then you can multiply that by 16 straight off the bat...then you run into a limitation with VePro before you run into a wall with LogicPro.

    If you use channelizing for your articulations, then you can also achieve more than 127 midi channels to VePro7 through one AU3 instance...because you can, for example, have 127 source midi tracks, each one channelizing articulations across say 16 midi channels...  When you do that, LogicPro will make full use of all 768 midi channels available in VePro7...all through one single AU3 instance and without using the environment at all.

    So you see the precise limitation in LogicPro is the number of multi-timbral track objects that can be created for each AU3 instrument channel.


  • Thanks for your reply Steve. In this thread I'm not going to indulge any pedantic polemics, so l'll not be answering every remark. It really won't help this mission if noisy, contentious, tangential technical pedantry and nugatory issues of nomenclature keep getting in the way - these things just tend to wreck creative impetus and rapid progress.

    Here and now I'm interested only in helping and encouraging ambitious Logic-user composers to stretch their wings out fully and fly high up there into the big blue yonder where Cubase power-users have ruled for so long.

    I stand by everything I've said in my post above, but I have changed two words to help with your difficulty in understanding the first sentence (even though it's clear and unambiguous read in context); it now reads – "... dedicating one Logic Pro Software Instrument for each and every AU3 MIDI channel ...".

    Having been elbows-deep in Logic's Environment since Jan 2001, I'm reasonably sure I know what I'm doing in there. I'd recommend Edgar Rothermich's excellent series of e-books on Logic Pro if you'd like to brush up a little.

    I'll be elaborating on the Patchbay Template approach later.


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    Hey  macker, I wasn't meaning to pick a fight with you.  Just trying to clarify some information.  A lot of people complain about LogicPro's 1000 instrument channel limitation, but in reality I don't think its holding anyone back if and when the situation is fully understood.

    Regarding the following statement, its still not clear what you meant:

    @Another User said:

    I'll be elaborating on the Patchbay Template approach later.

    As I already said in my previous post, I would be interested in hearing more about what you are doing.  the whole concept of a "patchbay" has me intrigued.

    But just to be clear, LogicPro is capable of far more than 1000 instrument tracks.  I do not see it as being limited compared to Cubase in that regard.  Cubase does have nicer folder support though.


  • Steve I've been doing a bit of browsing beyond these hallowed walls, and find that - like several others - you've already cottoned on to the fact that cabling MIDI Instruments to AU3-ported Software Instruments escapes the 127 channel-per-instance barrier. 

    I have to say I'm surprised and disappointed you didn't just say so when replying to my post here, rather than going through the weird charade of trying to raise this, that and the other nugatory issues in my post. Some of us here don't have the time or inclination to spend time in other forums, and so don't know what you've already done elsewhere. 

    You've been trying to find faults with my recommendation of cabling MIDI to Software Instruments when you've already done it yourself and even provided a ready made template using the method? I really don't get it. Distinctly odd in my book. Ah well, it takes all sorts I suppose.


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    @Macker said:

    Steve I've been doing a bit of browsing beyond these hallowed walls, and find that- like several others- you've already cottoned on to thefact that cabling MIDI Instruments to AU3-ported Software Instrumentsescapes the 127 channel-per-instance barrier. I have to say I'm surprised and disappointed you didn't just say so when replying to my post here, rather than going through the weird charade oftrying to raisethis, that and the othernugatoryissues in my post. Some of us here don't have the time or inclination to spend timein other forums,andso don't know what you've already done elsewhere. You've been trying to find faults with my recommendation ofcabling MIDI to Sotware Instruments when you've already done it yourself and even provided a ready made template using the method? I really don't get it. Distinctly odd in my book. Ah well, it takes all sorts I suppose.
    Again, not to beat a dead horse but the precise limitation is NOT 127 channels. I’m not trying to give you a hard time macker, just trying to clarify the information. See my earlier posts again for the precise details about logicpro multi timbral Inst limitations

  • Dear fellow Logic users, I'd love to tempt, inspire and encourage you to make more use of the Environment.

    I've attached a fuzzy little pic of part of the 320-channel-per-page patchbay I'm working with now. This is my luxury version, using Standard MIDI Instruments rather than the Multi, though of course the latter can also be used. Unlike the compact but somewhat awkward Multi-MIDI Instrument, the very well-behaved little Standard MIDI Instrument syncs its titles perfectly with Track list and Mixer strips; it can also be set to All-channels for convenient divisi or reduction scoring. My testing thus far indicates that Logic's Articulation Sets work normally with this configuration.

    I like being able to see everything in this way on an Environment page.

    I'm no stranger to this kind of configuration since it's how I started out in Logic, 20 years ago. Back then, Logic 3.5 didn't have software instruments; I sent all MIDI out from the excellent sequencer (via many OMS IAC Bus channels) to lots of samplers and synths in Reason, and sent Reason's audio back to Logic for mixdown; sort of like using VEPro today.

    This patchbay has extra features that are used with my Situater Orchestral Intonation subsystem, but even without Situater the patchbay idea is still a handy thing to use.

    Image


  • Steve I'm afraid you are flogging a very dead horse. It's simply not an issue for me.


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    @Macker said:

    Steve I'm afraid you are flogging a very dead horse. It's simply not an issue for me.
    Not sure why you are being so aggressive towards me but since you know my name you obviously must have an axe to grind, whoever you are. There is no need to be so personal about it. This is just a place to share ideas. My posts are not meant exclusively for you, they are meant for all posterity. Your patchbay looks intriguing and would love to see an actual lpx project file so we can try it ourselves

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    @Macker said:

    using Standard MIDI Instruments rather than the Multi, though of course the latter can also be used. Unlike the compact but somewhat awkward Multi-MIDI Instrument, the little Standard MIDI Instrument syncs its titles perfectly with Track list and Mixer strips;it can also be set to All-channelsfor convenient divisior reduction scoring.
    This is an interesting point I will explore later in my own templates

  • "Not sure why you are being so aggressive towards me"

    Steve if I was being aggressive to you you'd know all about it.

    Care to show us precisely your evidence of my alleged "aggression" to you in this thread?

    You're the victim here? Oh really? Your noisome posting above has adorned and supported this thread "for all posterity"? You didn't use the same techniques on the Audio Groceries guy in another forum? What's really going on here Steve? I sense that below the surface you're angry and upset about something but you haven't said what it is about this thread that's upset you.

    I want you to explain why you've been going hell for leather chasing your own tail trying to pick holes in my thread here yet you've already publicly espoused the very same technical concept elsewhere. I'm sure I'm not the only one who finds that odd; now's your opportunity to set the record straight.