Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

Forum Jump  
Morricone's Deborah's Theme with SYzd Dimension Strings
Last post Sun, May 23 2021 by PaoloT, 19 replies.
Options
Go to last post
Posted on Sun, Apr 18 2021 23:07
by PaoloT
Joined on Tue, Dec 27 2016, Posts 1118

Hi,

With the release of Elite Strings, VSL released a demo in a genre that is not typical of them, as much as it isn't for me.

I had to try myself on it, while also checking what Dimension Strings can do in the same domain. I like DS, because of their versatility. I'm curious to see how expressive they can be in a openly melodic piece.

It's not a type of writing that I'm in, so it would probably be an odd mockup.

These are the Synchronized Dimension Strings, with no sordino. I went for the Synchronized, because they have 2nd violins ready, and I had to see that they make a clear difference with the VI Dimension Strings, where you have to create them with placement. In the "2nd violins to the left" setup, preferred in the Synchron Stage, this is not easy to do.

Not performed, but entered in Dorico and edited there.

Morricone, Deborah's Theme (88664)

(First reading)

This is a version with a reduced set, matching the numbers of Elite Strings (65443). I didn't count the Solo Strings added to the melody parts, considering them as Solo mics.

Morricone, Deborah's Theme (65443, older version)

Paolo

Posted on Mon, Apr 19 2021 11:33
by Andreas8420
Joined on Mon, Dec 02 2019, Vienna, Posts 64

Hi Paolo,

Great effort programming this for Dorico! As the voicing and the harmonics of this incredibly Morricone composition are the heart and soul of this piece, I would try to address the dynamics & the team in much more detail. Utilizing Dorico's dynamic & tempo markers is a good start, but going into a lot more fine-tuning is what would bring this rendition to life - you know ... to let the music breath and flow naturally. 

Best regards,
Andreas

Technical Support - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Mon, Apr 19 2021 12:32
by PaoloT
Joined on Tue, Dec 27 2016, Posts 1118

Hi Andreas, thank you very much for listening! I agree the next thing to do is to chisel each line's dynamic. Dynamics (CC1) will become more independent, and CC11 will help them (each phrase, in the original piece, nearly fades to niente, and this is something that I can't do with CC1's alone).

I don't know if I should be more extreme with soft attacks and releases. Maybe switching to sordino patches would make my curgent programming sufficient. I have still to see how to invoke sordi o patches in my presets used with Dorico.

Tempi and melodic lines will have to be smoothed out. Fine-tuning micro-dynamics, rework note overlapping. I'm not sure, however, I’m in full command of the interactions between editing and Dorico's automatic humanization.

Paolo

Posted on Mon, Apr 19 2021 18:26
by Macker
Joined on Tue, Aug 21 2018, London, Posts 337

Already a very lovely rendition, Paolo. Really well done!

On listening to a performance conducted by Maestro Ennio himself, (catturato a Venezia, 2007), I was immediately reminded of the need for molto vibrato when using Dimension Strings in intensely romantic pieces like this one. But rather than waiting for VSL to agree to add molto vibrato to DStrings, I'd say embedding VSL string soloists somewhat prominently in various sections would more easily secure the right feeling for this piece.

If I were to render this I'd study several of the different recordings available on YouTube, and craft my own expressive and dynamic softenings, tightenings, shortenings, lengthenings, etc, according to what I felt worked best in those various recordings. But that's just me wanting (indeed needing) to avoid the very long and deep learning I'd require to compete with the best out there. That said, I'm fairly sure Paolo will do it Paolo's way, come di solito, lol.

But in any case, attaining the final 20% of the quality of rendition and mix will probably take about 80% of the time and effort - (Pareto Principle) as always, it seems to me. And as you're already so close to a marvelously lovely emulation, I'll just wish you buon viaggio.

Posted on Mon, Apr 19 2021 20:00
by PaoloT
Joined on Tue, Dec 27 2016, Posts 1118

Macker, thank you very much for listening, your kind words as the precious hints, come d'abitudine.

The molto vibrato solution you propose is great: adding Solo Strings! They have great molto vibrato. Also, exploring progressive vibrato in DS could be useful. I've heard Guy Bacos using it in the most natural way.

I know this style is not my territory, so I had to keep some strong examples with me since the beginning. The original soundtrack; the Concerto di Venezia you cite (so beautiful!); Erik Snopko's demo for Elite Strings, to be sure of what a virtual instrument can do when used as it should; and a wonderful rendition made by one of my friends (Marcello's Theme).

So, yes, I will have to study the best models, and try to get some of their secrets. Che il viaggio abbia di nuovo inizio!

Paolo

Posted on Tue, Apr 20 2021 10:52
by PaoloT
Joined on Tue, Dec 27 2016, Posts 1118

Originally Posted by: Macker Go to Quoted Post

[…] molto vibrato to DStrings […]

I see I had actually added crossfades between non vibrato, regular vibrato and molto/prog/espressivo vibrato in the score. But I had not checked if the corresponding custom articulation in Dorico was really extending past the first note, and it didn't! :(

Most of the quietest parts seem to work fine with non vibrato and regular vibrato. Progressive vibrato can add much tension to a few notes, but there is a risk of overdoing, so it is better to only reserve it to some apex. I'll try a version with these variations later.

Paolo

Posted on Tue, Apr 20 2021 18:21
by PaoloT
Joined on Tue, Dec 27 2016, Posts 1118

I've tried another solution. Since the strings in the original piece are not simply legato, but sort of legato-portato, or accented-legato, I replaced the regular legato with a legato-marcato. Playing with the attacks may give the sound I'm after.

There is still much work to do (smoothing, messa di voce…), and I also have to understand some idiosyncrasies of Dorico that I'm not sure to have fully understood.

Paolo

Posted on Thu, Apr 22 2021 10:35
by PaoloT
Joined on Tue, Dec 27 2016, Posts 1118

For the third rehearsal, I've done some more experiments, and found that increasing Legato Blur to 64 (half scale) was a good compromise. I also did a finer work on vibrato, and this also proved a noticeable improvement.

I'm discovering more and more the qualities of Dimension Strings!

Paolo

Posted on Fri, Apr 23 2021 10:03
by PaoloT
Joined on Tue, Dec 27 2016, Posts 1118

The exact articulation I'm looking for the three-note motive in anacrusis is the performance détaché. This is a legato where each note begins with a bow change, making them slightly but smoothly accented.

This is unfortunately unavailable in Dimension Strings. Something similar is in the legato repetition, but then notes last too little (it's about a half-second détaché). Time-stretching doesn't seem a viable solution.

This articulation is also available in the new Elite Strings, but also in the old Solo Strings. Blended with Dimension Strings, these latter seem to do wonders. I'll see how it works with all the melodic lines.

Layering in Dorico is not a quick task, since all CC data are to be entered by hand again, with no chance to copy and paste them in different staves.

Paolo

Posted on Thu, Apr 29 2021 23:58
by PaoloT
Joined on Tue, Dec 27 2016, Posts 1118

I've finally added the SYzd Solo Strings to Vni I, II and Viola. I find the addition of performance détaché to be very effective.

Paolo

Posted on Fri, Apr 30 2021 01:13
by Macker
Joined on Tue, Aug 21 2018, London, Posts 337

Brillante, Paolo!

Now it's really taken off and sounds as alive and vibrant as a real live performance of the piece. I'd say you've entered popular romantic territory con onore.

Beautifully done Sir.

Posted on Fri, Apr 30 2021 09:13
by PaoloT
Joined on Tue, Dec 27 2016, Posts 1118

Thank you for your kind words, Macker! I hope to have nailed most of the issues Andi was highlighting, and made it alive enough to be credible.

I still doubt if I should keep the higher dynamic point so high, letting the music "explode", or should make it more subdued. Using sordine would probably already tame the dynamics, and this is something that I have to try.

Paolo

Posted on Sat, May 01 2021 09:56
by PaoloT
Joined on Tue, Dec 27 2016, Posts 1118

I've added a version with a reduced set of Dimension Strings, to match the weight of Elite Strings more closely.

Paolo

Posted on Sat, May 01 2021 14:45
by Macker
Joined on Tue, Aug 21 2018, London, Posts 337

This combination sounds completely natural and very pretty. Nice work.

I bought Elite last night. One strong motive was to try it alongside SDS in a Wagner piece that has lots of divisi throughout. Thanks to your demo I'm now confident that these two libraries can share the stage very well.

Posted on Sat, May 01 2021 21:02
by PaoloT
Joined on Tue, Dec 27 2016, Posts 1118

Macker, happy to have been of help! I can't wait to listen to DS and ES layered. Will they sound like two separate chamber ensembles, or as a glorified "Dimension Strings" ensemble, made of concurrent instruments?

Paolo

Posted on Mon, May 03 2021 18:06
by Macker
Joined on Tue, Aug 21 2018, London, Posts 337

I had to jump in quick to catch Elite's introductory price, but I'm afraid it might be quite some time before I'm ready to post a demo.

I'm hoping to use ES/DS divisi combinations in a way that to some small but vital extent will help my orchestra depart from that all-encompassing homogeneity which Karajan always strove to achieve. I believe we can now move onwards from that particular ideal (as the Berliner Phil with Rattle have already done); wonderful though it was as an ideal in its heyday.

But before I can get busy adding ES to DS in the piece I'm working on currently, I have to concoct a decent way of applying sordino to Elite in all but the CB section - and this is a horribly complicated and time-consuming task to do well. In the past I've used simple EQ profiles to approximate sordino but have never been satisfied with the results. I've started building more complex automatically-matched EQ profiles, but I'm thinking I might have to use at least two different such profiles per section: one for lower notes, one for higher notes. We'll see. It appears the mechanical-acoustical consequences of using that simple little rubber gadget are far from simple.

Anyway, I digress. I'd say you're better placed than me right now, Paolo, to take us forward with our new Elite addition to the family.

Posted on Sat, May 22 2021 16:14
by PaoloT
Joined on Tue, Dec 27 2016, Posts 1118

I've done some other changes. Just some smoothing in tempo and dynamics, and a more transparent mastering, with less aggressive EQ (just a hint of attenuation around 500 and 3500Hz) and very slight compression and limiting.

Paolo

Posted on Sun, May 23 2021 05:24
by Macker
Joined on Tue, Aug 21 2018, London, Posts 337

Very expressive, very warm, very real, very lovely, very human; very nice work, Paolo.

Hope you've rewarded yourself for that with some of your most favourite and very Italian prelibatezze gastronomiche!

Posted on Sun, May 23 2021 17:21
by PaoloT
Joined on Tue, Dec 27 2016, Posts 1118

Thank you, Macker! Actually, while continuing to eat well at home, this week I had a chance to go eating a couple times to a Greek deli at the harbor. Not the typical chain restaurant, but a true family kitchen. Home-made pita, moussaka, a few dolmades. And a few kataifis. With a small bottle or retsina.

I had my rewards! :)

Paolo

You cannot post new threads in this forum.
You cannot reply to threads in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.