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VEP7 MFX and Preset Automation
Last post Tue, May 11 2021 by rwbmuse, 38 replies.
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Posted on Sun, May 09 2021 17:36
by Dewdman42
Joined on Tue, Feb 27 2018, Posts 786
Plogue bidule does not do any automatic plugin delay compensation. It has tools to manually do it. Their excuse is that graphs are too complicated to figure it out automatically. I did ask them once. It’s possible that plogue does not even automatically report the resulting latency of the graph to the host but I haven’t tested that Find out. It does have a lot of tools inside and probably there is a way to manually insert a module that will report the latency that needs to be reported to the host. Then vepro will respond correctly. If not you can always put expert sleepers latency fixer on the same channel strip in vepro where bidule is, and manually report the latency that way which should solve that issue.

The main issue I have had with plogue bidule inside vepro is that the vst version sometimes crashes vepro, at least in the past. But the AU version didn’t. Then I occasionally had some weird GUI bugs, which I can’t remember now if they were specifically related to using vepro on a remote slave and ms remote desktop, but anyway I would not buy without a proper demo either. Ask the author and tell him you need to test inside vepro. He kind of does his demos in a weird way.

But seems to me you will get more mileage out of tweaking your reaktor setup to use parameter automation instead of midi
Posted on Sun, May 09 2021 23:37
by rwbmuse
Joined on Tue, Sep 19 2017, Posts 32

Out of the 5 FX loops I have integrated in my rig, two are Reaktor based. I had previously set these up with fixed multiFX processors. I have yet to get into selecting snapshots via MIDI and I am not quite sure how that is done. Selecting though parameter change may very well be the only way. Because Reaktor has numerous FX to choose from and they all seem to use snapshots, I wonder if snapshots from a variety of FX can be placed in a folder and treated more or less like a bank, so that when a snapshot is called, it loads said FX instance.  Maybe that is a stretch and something best left for a Reaktor forum, , but you seem knowledgable in this topic.

In any case, I also placed Guitar Rig and Reflektor XT in two of the other loops as well as an Arturia replication of the classic Mutron Bi-Phase as that was an instrument I had years ago that I was fond of. Using Kushman Elements I began building a  BiPhase preset list and was preparing to experiments to see if I could select those via VEP parameters while the plugin was inserted in an audio bus. Guitar Rig loaded within Elements fine and I have discovered it is a versatile multi FX processor that needn't just be used for guitar FX. So I am not just using Reaktor FX is my main point here. 

Robert W Brown
Posted on Mon, May 10 2021 00:13
by Dewdman42
Joined on Tue, Feb 27 2018, Posts 786

So here's another possible way to work to consider...

You could use a separate VePro instance for each "specific" FX instance..  And then in the main DAW you are using you switch which VePro plugin instance depend on however you want to do it.

For example...

let's say you have Kushview sitting as a plugin in Your DAW. (not in Vepro)  Inside that plugin you have 5 instances of VePro plugin.  Y

ou could have those in one big graph or they could each have their own graph.  Let's take the latter situation.  Inside Kushview you have 5 graphs, and each one has a single VePro Plugin, which is connected to its own devoted instance on VePro server.

Now Kushview can respond to PC messages in your DAW and that will cause the appropriate graph to be loaded, which will point to the particular VePro instance you want...

Just generally moving the ProgramChange switching out of VePro and into your DAW may open some options, so long as you don't need to a actually get more midi into the FX plugin..beyond switching the preset.  For example a few rare FX plugins use midi to manipulate their effect in real time, such as Stutter Edit.  That's a different problem.  But if you just need to be able to somehow use PC message to choose which FX preset...then perhaps by using the DAW to switch which VePro instance its routing through..you can accomplish that.

just thinking out of the box...

Posted on Mon, May 10 2021 04:15
by rwbmuse
Joined on Tue, Sep 19 2017, Posts 32

An interesting approach to be sure. I do run each FX in different instances already. I will contemplate your idea and I am not against letting go of structure that I have already created if it works better. Switching graphs does offer some possibilities. In one of the images I posted earlier, you can see that the FX mixer allows me to chain FX loops in a variety of ways, although this is overkill given that I am using multiFX processing on most of these loops, I may have to relinquish that benefit if I took the graph switching approach.  Distributing the processing to maintain stability is crucial to my plan. Presently I am using two desktops and a laptop. My plan is to eventually replace the two desktops with a pair of Mac Minis mounted in a Sonnet rack mount for a more compact live rig. The marriage of all this software has to be very stable so there are no crashes on stage.  

Robert W Brown
Posted on Mon, May 10 2021 05:42
by Macker
Joined on Tue, Aug 21 2018, London, Posts 354

Robert, have you tried the demo or at least investigated the specifications of Blue Cat Audio's PatchWork plugin?

It appears to be very relevant to what you've said you're trying to do. I've used it for years for a variety of odd tasks, including hosting a MIDI-controlled MultiFx rack. I've found it to be tremendously flexible and it's always done what I've wanted it to do.

Posted on Mon, May 10 2021 05:43
by Dewdman42
Joined on Tue, Feb 27 2018, Posts 786

Warning, BlueCatAudio patchwork has some GUI problems and/or crashes inside VePro.  It was mentioned already earlier in this thread.  I also own that product and its quite good, but not inside VePro.  At least it has in the past, its always possible some update may have fixed those problems or will in the future.

See this thread for some history about several of the plugin hoster's being discussed: https://www.vsl.co.at/community/posts/t52997-Bluecat-Pathwork-VST-synth-inside-VEPro#post287490

Posted on Mon, May 10 2021 05:47
by Macker
Joined on Tue, Aug 21 2018, London, Posts 354

I reiterate, Robert, I suggest you try or at least investigate Patchwork for yourself.

Most unfortunately, there seems to have been a lot of 'crying wolf' in this forum about this or that technical solution, and too often it looks suspiciously like deliberate smearing just in order to get some other provided solution favoured.

Hence, regretfully, I strongly suggest you rely on your own investigations and judgments in this particular minefield that you're currently struggling with. (Btw I am in no way affiliated with Blue Cat Audio.)

Posted on Mon, May 10 2021 13:15
by rwbmuse
Joined on Tue, Sep 19 2017, Posts 32

I did look at the Blue Cat website and was very interested in Patchworks. It seemed to me, given the reported GUI issue within VEPro, that a standalone version of Patchworks with another network audio solution would be ideal. Dante audio networking would also be ideal, but the price of admission is prohibitive to me at this point.  Here is a crazy thought, I noticed VEP input and event plugins were available within Kushview, but Elements does not allow audio to pass through the VEPro firewall (I suppose it the ports are simply not connected). Thinking outside the box, what about using VEPro plugins within Bidule as a means to create audio nodes for FX loops?  

In the meantime I will look into coaxing Plogue to allow a trial version of Bidule and also see about a trial version of Patchworks. 

Here is a short video I made of me playing my rig for your amusement. :-)

Peter Gunn

Robert W Brown
Posted on Mon, May 10 2021 17:14
by Dewdman42
Joined on Tue, Feb 27 2018, Posts 786

Great video!  Loved it.

I am sure there is a trial version of BlueCatAudio's Patchworks.  

I will play around with Kushview and the Audio Input plugin specifically today if I get some time.  

Posted on Mon, May 10 2021 17:55
by rwbmuse
Joined on Tue, Sep 19 2017, Posts 32

I downloaded the Blue Cat trial and am trying it out. Since the machine I am running it on is a 12 core with 98 gig of RAM, perhaps I may not need to be so hasty in hosting it on a VEPro server. I will check the processing load as I go to see. I did read your previous forum posts on that matter and found them illuminating! 

I am glad you enjoyed the video. You probably heard how I was automating FX so can see my need for such capabilities. 

Robert W Brown
Posted on Mon, May 10 2021 19:04
by rwbmuse
Joined on Tue, Sep 19 2017, Posts 32

Blue Cat Patchworks is rocking my world. One of the reasons I was moving FX to VEPro was because I could not access MIDI preset changes in V-Racks on Digital Performer. Of course the other reason was because of the savings in processing power. Patchworks does something I have not seen before by adding working MIDI ports internally to my DAW, even though they are in that virtual rack. I have tested it and I can automate patch changes and Patchwork configuration changes in that configuration. Plus the load on my processor seems to be in the acceptable range even with five instances of Patchworks running. Badass! Thanks for the tip!!!  I will check later to see if perhaps it works within VEPro without crashing. As it stands now, I am buying!

Robert W Brown
Posted on Mon, May 10 2021 23:47
by Dewdman42
Joined on Tue, Feb 27 2018, Posts 786

Awesome to hear.  BlueCatAudio definitely makes cool stuff.  Just make sure to fully test it out in VePro if that is where you intend to use it.  Its been a while since I ran it through Vepro tests, its always possible that some updates from either party have removed the concerns from one year and two years ago per the other thread.

Posted on Tue, May 11 2021 15:19
by rwbmuse
Joined on Tue, Sep 19 2017, Posts 32

Thanks Macker, 

I am exploring PatchWork and really like it a lot. It does not seem to help with my issue within my VEP server where I would like to access both MIDI and audio in a channel strip. I have successfully launched it in VEP and it does not crash the program. I have also embedded it within KushView Elements within VEP and still can not gain access to both MIDI and Audio to switch Patchwork presets or change Elements graphs. VEP just won't allow this and as I read, VSL developers seem to believe that there is not sufficient interest in such capacity. But the good news for me is that Patchworks allows me to use the plugin within my virtual instrument rack, which is shared by all my sequences and song "Chunks" within DP while allowing MIDI Data to control presets. That gives me a solution that seems to work. It would be better to farm out that processing within VEP, but alas <insert snarky comment about VSL not understanding the need to dynamically automate FX presets in an FX rack server>. Maybe someday they will understand the need. 

Robert W Brown
Posted on Tue, May 11 2021 19:06
by Macker
Joined on Tue, Aug 21 2018, London, Posts 354

Robert, I'm just glad you arrived at a solution of use to you, and that you got there under your own steam. A pity it didn't quite fit the bill as you originally wanted; I guess we'll have to wait and see what time brings on that front. In the meantime no doubt soon you'll have a depth of knowledge and expertise with your solution that can guide and help others. Anyway, well done!

Posted on Tue, May 11 2021 19:09
by Dewdman42
Joined on Tue, Feb 27 2018, Posts 786
Just to clarify, the problems I had with patchworks inside vepro last year and the year before were GUI related issues not so much “crashing” I can’t remember the exact issue right now. When I get to my computer I will run a few tests.

Plogue bidule may be the only way to get iac to feed into vepro fx plugin. In the past I had both GUI problems and crashing problems with plogue bidule inside vepro but the AU version worked better then the VST version. The AU didn’t crash as I recall. I realize, however, there is no demo for you to try it inside vepro now.

By the way plogue bidule has some network audio features of its own but I’ve never tried it

Posted on Tue, May 11 2021 19:40
by rwbmuse
Joined on Tue, Sep 19 2017, Posts 32

Hey Dewdman, I have not seen any GUI issues with Patchwork embedded in VEPro, and that is also with Kushview Elements as a Wrapper. I may try Bidule down the road as a way to get audio past the VEP instrument limitation, but for now I am configuring my system for happy FX automation. Also, I am still using VEPro to host my virtual instruments and that is working out well too. 

Robert W Brown
Posted on Tue, May 11 2021 20:09
by Dewdman42
Joined on Tue, Feb 27 2018, Posts 786

I am also testing out Patchwork again right now, so far no GUI problems!  So perhaps those have been fixed since last year...which would have been BlueCatAudio fix, VePro7 hasn't been updated in quite a while..  Please let us know if you have any issues with it as you get further into it.

I vaguely recall it had something to do with hosting plugins inside Patchworks when patchworks is inside VePro..the sub-sub-hosted plugins would have problem...but so far so good today!  and good to know.

That being said, I don't think you will be able to get midi into patchwork/Vepro from IAC regardless.

The main point about PlogueBidule is that it has an IAC module that DOES work.  So you could setup PlobueBidule as AudioFX...and inside PlogueBidule, use the IAC module to get midi from totally outside of VePro.  If you are going to use VePro.

Posted on Tue, May 11 2021 23:11
by rwbmuse
Joined on Tue, Sep 19 2017, Posts 32

Also thanks Macker for the encouragement. I purchased Patchwork today and I am having fun getting it configured. Perhaps in the future it will work within VEP. I do wish the standalone MIDI paired with my MIDI setup, that seems to be an unfortunate omission. Fortunately the plugins do what I was looking for for s long now. 

I also have come to realize that the VSL team really intended for this software to be used to host their symphonic libraries, so I was a bit too critical of features that were missing. It does a lot for me and in the future I will be moving into the symphonic realm.

Robert W Brown
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