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MIR 3D
Last post Mon, Aug 23 2021 by Dietz, 44 replies.
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Posted on Wed, Jun 30 2021 18:27
by Pixelpoet1985
Joined on Fri, Dec 23 2016, Germany, Posts 313

I haven't understood a single word, but I'm looking forward to it nevertheless, haha. XD

Posted on Wed, Jun 30 2021 18:59
by Dewdman42
Joined on Tue, Feb 27 2018, Posts 783

Dietz,

Is there any reason to feel that this 3rd order ambisonic tech will create more "depth" accuracy even while just using stereo results?  

Posted on Wed, Jun 30 2021 21:16
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7729

Depending on the chosen decoding method the difference ranges from "subtle" to "dramatic", even in stereo. :-) It's not so much about "depth" per se, more about enveloping and also about decorrelation.

... but then, MIR 3D is not "just" about Higher Order Ambisonics and 3D audio, but also about new concepts of preset creation and management, and of course an overhauled GUI. :-) 

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Wed, Jun 30 2021 22:53
by Dewdman42
Joined on Tue, Feb 27 2018, Posts 783
Any wait to hear it!
Posted on Thu, Jul 01 2021 05:12
by VirtualVirgin
Joined on Fri, Jul 20 2012, Posts 78

Thank you Dietz :)

 

Your answers are actually very similar to my speculation, so I feel on track with my conception of what you are up to.

I have been trying out various configurations for 3D audio, including Atmos and I am finding that when I import mixes to work on that use MIR pro as the anchor for all of the placement duties, I do not have an interest to pull it apart to upmix. The space sounds so good in stereo that upmixing techniques aren't quite satisfying and I hesitate to use any "tricks" on it. 

I will be happy to be first in line for the upgrade :)

Posted on Thu, Jul 01 2021 07:40
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7729

Originally Posted by: VirtualVirgin Go to Quoted Post
Thank you Dietz :)

You're very welcome!

If you do a lot of 3D audio work _now_, it's a tedious, but perfectly doable trick with certain Venues to bounce a wet-only second run of your mix with another Main Microphone, preferably one that was positioned higher than the first one. Especially the churches and chapels available in MIR's RoomPacks are a good choice for this workaround.

... MIR 3D will allow for direct use of Secondary Microphones in comparable setups, because then there are enough audio outputs available anyway.

Quote:
I will be happy to be first in line for the upgrade :)

That's good to hear! We'll do our best to meet your expectations. :-)

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Sun, Jul 04 2021 11:57
by Amit Katzengold
Joined on Wed, Nov 11 2020, Posts 1

I'm also very much looking forward for this... and crossing my fingers the upgrade won't be expensive 

It may be soon to ask but if I upgrades to MIR 3D can I switch between it and pro(24) for different projects?

Also, in contrast I've been eyeing Spat revolution essentials and I'm wondering in terms of virtual space will MIR 3D also offer some kind of "neutral" space without much of a room\venue feel to it?

Posted on Sun, Jul 04 2021 14:39
by Seventh Sam
Joined on Sat, Dec 29 2018, Posts 287

Originally Posted by: Dietz Go to Quoted Post

Depending on the chosen decoding method the difference ranges from "subtle" to "dramatic", even in stereo. :-) It's not so much about "depth" per se, more about enveloping and also about decorrelation.

... but then, MIR 3D is not "just" about Higher Order Ambisonics and 3D audio, but also about new concepts of preset creation and management, and of course an overhauled GUI. :-) 

Dietz,

If you have the time and inclination, would you be willing to elaborate on what you mean by enveloping and decorrelation?  I think I have an idea of what you're talking about, but I'd love to hear more specifics on it so I can better understand all of this (and apply that knowledge in my own work).  

- Sam

Posted on Mon, Jul 05 2021 10:34
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7729

"Enveloping", "decorrelation" ... That's techno babble :-) for the feeling of being "surrounded by sound" (or in our case: by the room).

Some online-sources for further reading:

-> https://www.sweetwater.com/insync/decorrelation/

-> https://valhalladsp.com/2010/05/12/shimmer-modulation-auto-correlation-and-decorrelation/

-> https://www.jstor.org/stable/3680992

HTH,

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Mon, Jul 05 2021 20:35
by Seventh Sam
Joined on Sat, Dec 29 2018, Posts 287

Thank you, Dietz.  Those links help me understand the concept better 

Posted on Sun, Aug 08 2021 06:05
by Milan_B
Joined on Sun, Jul 19 2020, Tallinn, Estonia, Posts 7
This all sounds incredible. I know it might be too early to answer some or all of these, but:

- is there a very broad ballpark for when this could be available (even if just in beta)? A few weeks, a few months, more than 6 months?

- what is the plan for the price of the product? Slightly more than MIR Pro, significantly more than MIR Pro?

- will there be a "MIR 3D 24" or similar kind of limited/budget-friendly version?

- will the demo version include randomly positioned, randomly triggering default iPhone ringtone?

- does this reuse the existing impulse responses from the 6 MIR stages, or do you need to re-record venues for this?

Either way, thanks for the updates and good luck!
Posted on Sun, Aug 08 2021 10:45
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7729

Hi Milan,

thanks for your interest in our ongoing development work! Highly appreciated.

It's very tempting for me to share my excitement and anticipation, but as you know, it's good ol' VSL company policy no to spill the beans at an early stage. 8-) I'll try to answer your questions as thoroughly as possible nevertheless, but please understand that I won't go into the details. 

Originally Posted by: Milan_B Go to Quoted Post
: - is there a very broad ballpark for when this could be available (even if just in beta)? A few weeks, a few months, more than 6 months?

"This year" sounds realistic, from today's POV.

Quote:
- what is the plan for the price of the product? Slightly more than MIR Pro, significantly more than MIR Pro?

I have no idea, honestly. I know for sure that there will be quite friendly upgrades for existing MIR Pro users, though. :-)

Quote:
- will there be a "MIR 3D 24" or similar kind of limited/budget-friendly version?

Same answer as above ....

Quote:
- will the demo version include randomly positioned, randomly triggering default iPhone ringtone?

OF COURSE!!!! ;-D ... that's its main new feature.

Quote:
- does this reuse the existing impulse responses from the 6 MIR stages, or do you need to re-record venues for this?

All our existing Venues have been reworked from the ground up, both acoustically and visually. Existing MIR Pro projects can be easily imported, but the sound will change slightly (... for the better, we hope!). There will also be new Venues in the not too distant future, from some pretty spectacular locations. The recordings are done already. ;-)

Quote:
Either way, thanks for the updates and good luck!

You're welcome! Thanks again for your interest. We'll keep you posted ...

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Sun, Aug 08 2021 14:05
by PaoloT
Joined on Tue, Dec 27 2016, Posts 1125

Dietz, will the new technology also allow for placing the close/mid mics of the Synchron Series into the other venues? Some kind of magic to interpolate from that sound, and make it coherent with the different venues?

Paolo

Posted on Mon, Aug 09 2021 10:22
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7729

Originally Posted by: PaoloT Go to Quoted Post

Dietz, will the new technology also allow for placing the close/mid mics of the Synchron Series into the other venues? Some kind of magic to interpolate from that sound, and make it coherent with the different venues?

Paolo

Well ... define "magic"! ;-) MIR will always rely on Ambisonics by definition, but the move to HOA (Higher Order Ambisonics) is a significant step towards a much more intense sensation of acoustic "enveloping" that does not need to fear comparison with other recording methods.

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Mon, Aug 09 2021 13:09
by PaoloT
Joined on Tue, Dec 27 2016, Posts 1125

Originally Posted by: Dietz Go to Quoted Post

does not need to fear comparison with other recording methods.

Dietz, I was not clear with my question. What I would like is a way to use the close/mid combo of mics of the Synchron instruments as we are now using any ‘dry' source. But the close/mid combo of the Synchron sounds contain more room information than the ones of the Silent Stage series. Is there any chance MIR 3D will be able to deal with this type of source, treat it as one to be made ‘dry', and place it into any other venue that is not the Synchron Stage?

Paolo

Posted on Mon, Aug 09 2021 14:57
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7729

Paolo, the underlying, basic principles of MIR Pro won't change in MIR 3D: Take a source signal (centered and as dry as it makes sense) and put it into a virtual (now three-dimensional) space by means of IRs captured by Ambisonics mics (now able to be decoded in HOA). While it sounds tempting to add it as an additional "magic" ;-) feature, there's no way in MIR to cancel existing spatial information inherent to the input signal. 

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Mon, Aug 09 2021 15:16
by Macker
Joined on Tue, Aug 21 2018, London, Posts 341

As one who is developing his own recipe for a "poor-man's 3D" (actually 2D) reverb solution in stereo (using Precedence and Breeze plugins), I'll be fascinated to hear demos of VSL's forthcoming MIR 3D.

Have to say I've never been particularly enamoured of any kind of surround sound solution. Gamers are probably the biggest potential market for ambisonics, because (theoretically) it can help the player's own internal 3D situational awareness. But in listening to orchestral music, I've never felt any want or need for that kind of situational awareness - indeed it can sometimes be an unwelcome distraction. Perhaps I'm odd in that way, or maybe just not a terribly good consumer. (Well, at least Harry Gregson-Williams seems to have a similar opinion.)

Nevertheless, I certainly do love a rich and interesting stereo field, most especially one in which the direct sound from each instrument, section or subsection (usually a dry mono source, although a little wetness - as in the Synchron close/mid mics - seems to help rather than hinder) is placed in the azimuth/distance field by differences of time and HRTF (Head-Related Transfer Function) in each channel of the stereo outcome. Simply-modelled HF air absorption, along with the plain old-fashioned loudness/distance law can also help HRTF in conjuring a pretty fair sense of distance.

Stereo-to-stereo reverb (I much prefer today's algorithmic type) is then icing on the cake. I like to have two aizimuth generator/HRTF plugins and two stereo-to-stereo reverb plugins for each instrument section, which I find helps enormously with the sense of 2D placement. And I like to put slight algorthmic differences in each of the pair of reverbs.

But I'm very curious to hear what difference to the stereo field can be made by today's ambisonics. I've been happy enough to posit that direct sound paths are primarily what the ear uses for azimuth detection and for best (HRTF-derived) sense of distance, while the whole sound including (stereo-to-stereo) reverb gives the ear other, more general clues about distances. Does ambisonics treat reflected paths such that the ear receives yet more, definite clues about exact placement of the sources, as compared to the solution I've described above?

Posted on Mon, Aug 09 2021 18:14
by daviddln
Joined on Tue, Feb 25 2014, Posts 215

Wow Dietz, thank you so much for sharing all these great news. I have to say, I am surprised that there will be new venues since I thought VSL was very focused on creating new Synchron products. Among these new venues, can you tell us if there will be a Synchron Stage B roompack? Thanks again! I wish Paul and Ben were as talkative as you are about upcoming products 

Best,
David

iMac 21.5, i7 4770S, 3,1 Ghz, 16 GB RAM
Komplete Kontrol S-88, Focusrite Clarett 4Pre
Logic Pro X, Finale 26
Posted on Mon, Aug 09 2021 19:14
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7729

Originally Posted by: daviddln Go to Quoted Post
Wow Dietz, thank you so much for sharing all these great news.

My pleasure!

Quote:
I have to say, I am surprised that there will be new venues since I thought VSL was very focused on creating new Synchron products. Among these new venues, can you tell us if there will be a Synchron Stage B roompack?

That's most certainly high up on the list, but that room as yet to be recorded for MIR.

Quote:
Thanks again! I wish Paul and Ben were as talkative as you are about upcoming products 

:-D .... well, they have to take care for hundreds of products, while I'm in the luxurious position to concentrate on very few of them. (Oh, and please don't tell anybody that we're talking about unreleased *gulp* stuff here.  )

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Thu, Aug 12 2021 18:57
by Pixelpoet1985
Joined on Fri, Dec 23 2016, Germany, Posts 313

Dietz, thanks for all the details! Very looking forward to this release, and also to the new venues. Hope there will be more scoring stages, even though I think you can't surpass the Synchron Stage. It's the best sounding room so far, in my opinion, especially with the MIRx settings. It seems poor Dietz has to do some more MIRx settings! :D

I have a question for MIR 3D:

Since one highlight is an easier preset management, I would like to know if it will be possible to have different output settings for the instruments, i.e. reverb length and volume of the secondary microphone. At the moment I have several MIR Pro instances each with different settings, but it would be nice to have all instruments in one instance.

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