Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

Forum Jump  
Options
Go to last post
Posted on Sat, Sep 11 2021 13:11
by CLAUDE MARC BOURGET
Joined on Thu, Dec 11 2008, Drummondville, Québec, Canada, Posts 136

Theoretically, in all VI instruments, are the playback volumes balanced with each other at the base? Do we have to adjust the master volumes ourselves (the fader is usually 100 in VI pro) and look for the balance in relation to the real power? For example, it is certain that trumpets are more piercing than trombones, but the difference in volume between the two, in VI, seems to me exaggerated. 

 

 

I would like to have some opinions on the subject. Thank you in advance.

CMB
Posted on Sat, Sep 11 2021 15:21
by Seventh Sam
Joined on Sat, Dec 29 2018, Posts 286

Originally Posted by: CLAUDE MARC BOURGET Go to Quoted Post

Do we have to adjust the master volumes ourselves (the fader is usually 100 in VI pro) and look for the balance in relation to the real power? 

With the VI instruments, yes.  With MirX or MIR Pro you can enable a feature called "Natural Volume" which will balance the instrument's volume in relation to all other instruments.  Keep in mind that this feature balances things so that the loudest instrument (Timpani) just barely clips the meter when struck loud, so some things will seem unbelievably quiet in relation.  All you need to do is find what the loudest instrument is, adjust that so it's peaking (at fortissimo) where you want it to peak, and adjust everything is in relation to that.

Posted on Sat, Sep 11 2021 15:27
by CLAUDE MARC BOURGET
Joined on Thu, Dec 11 2008, Drummondville, Québec, Canada, Posts 136

I really thought the job was done by Vienna. But since that's not the case, I'll do it. I am in the composition. Later I will see with MIR PRO. Thank you for the information.

CMB
Posted on Sat, Sep 11 2021 17:53
by Dewdman42
Joined on Tue, Feb 27 2018, Posts 783
Even with mirpro it should just be considered a starting point. You really need to understand proper orchestral balancing and basically manage it yourself. There are so many factors that can throw a preset setup out of balance and will require you to do that anyway.

But what IS balanced very well in vsl products and not so much in many other products; is the level balance between articulations of any given instrument. Vsl has gone to great lengths to ensure that the each instrument in its own responds dynamically in a realistic way and that no particular articulations will be too soft or too loud relative to others. That is no small thing.

But when you start writing and arranging and imposing expression curves on each instrument, the preset levels of one instrument against others can quickly become moot point. In the end YOU have to know how the orchestra is supposed to sound together, with or without mir pro natural volume
Posted on Sat, Sep 11 2021 21:29
by CLAUDE MARC BOURGET
Joined on Thu, Dec 11 2008, Drummondville, Québec, Canada, Posts 136

Thank you. I understand at the base, I believe, the orchestral balance (it's a long learning), and I will be able to adjust in my own way. I wanted to know what VSL was initially doing as a balance, but you confirm the need to check all that. Basically, it's true, it's better to do the work yourself, it's a beginning of orchestration, a useful implementation.

CMB
Posted on Sat, Sep 11 2021 21:30
by Seventh Sam
Joined on Sat, Dec 29 2018, Posts 286

Originally Posted by: CLAUDE MARC BOURGET Go to Quoted Post

I really thought the job was done by Vienna. But since that's not the case, I'll do it. I am in the composition. Later I will see with MIR PRO. Thank you for the information.

Unfortunately, it's impossible to have a "one size fits all" approach to gain staging orchestral samples due to the varying degrees of dynamic range needed in the intended final product.  Even relative volumes between the instruments vary from project to project, usually depending on whether it's incidental or absolute music.

Posted on Sun, Sep 12 2021 21:27
by Dewdman42
Joined on Tue, Feb 27 2018, Posts 783

Originally Posted by: CLAUDE MARC BOURGET Go to Quoted Post

Thank you. I understand at the base, I believe, the orchestral balance (it's a long learning), and I will be able to adjust in my own way. I wanted to know what VSL was initially doing as a balance, but you confirm the need to check all that. Basically, it's true, it's better to do the work yourself, it's a beginning of orchestration, a useful implementation.

Try to make some time to study scores while listening to them and pay particular attention to how certain instruments blended with other balance and make good notes.  It's a learning process.  I am still learning.  When in doubt, take a side trip to study scores while listening and research it.  This is part of the art of learning real world orchestration and it will simply take a lot of time.  It would easier if we were able to work with real live musicians on a regular basis, would learn these things rather quickly.  But without having that opportunity, the only way is through methodical score study and talking to people for insights...on a case by case basis until you develop an understanding about these things.

With sample libraries it is just extremely easy to break from reality and extend the dynamic range of any instrument, without limits really.  So you can easily end up creating music that would not be playable by real musicians if you're not careful.  But on the other hand, does that really matter if you won't ever be able to have it performed by real musicians after all?  In some ways, I think it might be fine to just use the sample libraries to make music that sounds good to you, mix it however you like in your DAW mixer until it sounds gorgeous, play it for your friends, don't worry about whether any real live musicians would be able to perform it or not, because unless that will actually happen, it doesn't really matter.  Its just sound and music.  Make it sound good.

On the other hand, if you are serious about the craft of orchestration, suitable for live players...then you will need to methodically study scores and learn how everything is able to blend together and then take care in your arrangements to constrain yourself to those restraints, regardless of the fact that DAW's and sample libraries will let you do the impossible.

Posted on Sun, Sep 12 2021 22:51
by CLAUDE MARC BOURGET
Joined on Thu, Dec 11 2008, Drummondville, Québec, Canada, Posts 136

You raise big questions about a starting point that is just a request for technical information on samples. I do not know if you are really responding to me or if this is an opportunity to talk about something that is important to you.

I have listened all my life (which is starting to be long) to orchestras, on record and live. I read Berlioz's treatises at a very young age, Widor's suite, then Rimsky-Korsakov's orchestration books. I am also friends with sound engineers dedicated to large orchestras, whose work I follow closely. I think I have an ear for the balance of instruments (my initial question follows my listening to the trumpet samples, too powerful for my ear, despite the natural power of the instrument). I never sought, however, to be played by an orchestra myself. The thing is inaccessible to me (and I have not worked very hard in this direction). I prefer to write for small sets, it's more realistic. But at the moment, I'm writing for a big band, which is a medium-sized orchestra (and more of a studio orchestra, so with strings). So I'm writing for a larger set than usual. This is why I return to full sections. I often work with Spitfire's BBC Pro for scale models (Spitfire's BBC is very well balanced: it exists), but I needed the saxophones and Spifire doesn't. So I turned to my library in Vienna. But I found that there were volume inconsistencies. But hey, we're not repeating this discussion. It is best to check and adjust yourself in any case.

However, I would like to come back to one of your comments. The one where you talk about building in virtual, without remaining fixed on the rendering of real instruments. You open the door to a very broad, very interesting discussion. For my part, that's what I do three-quarters of the time. I'm not interested in imitating the orchestra (my current job is to compose for a real jazz orchestra, so all my questions concern the creation of a model in support of a score, for decision-makers who do not read all music on paper) - except in the case of models. What interests me, however, is what virtual instruments can give that real instrumentalists cannot. Here, we open up remarkable perspectives.

For my part, what interests me more, in fact, is the mixture of the two, real and virtual. I composed a first project of this type a few years ago. : NOVIAUS TANZ, for violin, cello, virtual violins & virtual double bass. The score for violin and cello is recorded by two members of the Molinari Quartet. The rest is built by me in Pro Tools, with VSL instruments and without any connection with the reality of the instruments (while remaining plausible however). I give the link here for those who might be interested as a form: https://metis-islands.bandcamp.com/album/noviaus-tanz-for-violin-cello-virtual-violins-virtual-double-bass

I have been surprised for a very long time to see that most of the demo works presented on the Vienna site are orchestral imitations. Nothing for the virtual creation (or I'm wrong: it's been a long time since I have not peeled the site). Nothing for what is hybrid, like my example. Great discussion!

CMB
Posted on Sun, Sep 12 2021 23:27
by Dewdman42
Joined on Tue, Feb 27 2018, Posts 783
I was responding to you! You stated yourself as a beginner before now, but no offense was intended.

When working with daws and recording there are numerous factors related to gain staging that make it very difficult to create any kind of factory preset level balancing. And the minute you start to program in dynamics, you will cloud the issue even more. Whatever vsl provides now is a starting place only, after that you need to rely on your extensive orchestration experience to insure the sound you are hearing is representative of real world scenarios and at the same time consider daw recording audio engineering concerns regarding gain staging. Any preset provided by vsl is just a starting point and generally you will find that Instruments with a wide dynamic range are preset to a lower level so that there is headroom to go loud. They are somewhat setup with a recording concern in mind so that the loudest sounds with any given instrument will not clip the peak meter

Some synchron instruments may have their level set even lower than f it is characteristically a softer instrument. But you will fine tune it in any case. Real players also self adjust their playing while listening to other players. It is merely a loose starting place there is no frame of reference to exactly set all the instruments to some ideal starting level. Mirpro provides perhaps more volume Intelligence if you use vi instrument natural volume checkbox, but even these are still only a rough starting place and will depend a lot on the specific ensemble being used and the dynamic curves you draw in. Each track, as you program it, you will be trying to balance against previously recorded and curved tracks and basically any kind of preset starting level will quickly become irrelevant. It will come down to YOU knowing how loud or soft to make each phrase of each instrument relative to the others, all while also engineering your mix to avoid clipping, etc…
Posted on Mon, Sep 13 2021 00:41
by CLAUDE MARC BOURGET
Joined on Thu, Dec 11 2008, Drummondville, Québec, Canada, Posts 136

Maybe the translated language doesn't help (I write in French and then translate as I can), but I don't remember saying I was a beginner. But it's not important, let's not look at that. I just agree with you and I understand your very helpful comments on virtual instruments. Thank you.

CMB
You cannot post new threads in this forum.
You cannot reply to threads in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.