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Smoothest legato for Synchronized Woodwinds
Last post Tue, Oct 26 2021 by PaoloT, 12 replies.
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Posted on Mon, Oct 25 2021 16:45
by PaoloT
Joined on Tue, Dec 27 2016, Posts 1189

Hi,

While using Fast Legato, and increasing Legato Blur next to the maximum, I can't achieve the smooth legato in fast runs that I would have hoped.

The attack of each note continues to be stronger than expected. This is particularly evident in the clarinets, where the transition from a legato note to another should be nearly unperceivable.

Which other parameters should I check, to make the notes blur and run 'smooth as oil'?

Paolo

Posted on Mon, Oct 25 2021 18:12
by MMKA
Joined on Tue, May 22 2012, Posts 454

Hi Paolo,

You could try in the "Edit" tab the Wave Start Offset option. You probably will have to adapt the Start Offset Attack also. It is possible to make one or more slots with the samples adjusted with Wave Start Offset.
Then you can make a choice.
In ViPro it is possible to adapt the Wave Start Offset with automation. Unfortunately that isn't (yet?...) the case in the Synchron Player. 

Sometimes you can get reasonable results with the attack automation. That automation can diminish the loud transition sounds. I hope this helps...

Posted on Mon, Oct 25 2021 20:14
by PaoloT
Joined on Tue, Dec 27 2016, Posts 1189

Originally Posted by: MMKA Go to Quoted Post

You could try in the "Edit" tab the Wave Start Offset option. You probably will have to adapt the Start Offset Attack also. It is possible to make one or more slots with the samples adjusted with Wave Start Offset. […] 

Sometimes you can get reasonable results with the attack automation. That automation can diminish the loud transition sounds. I hope this helps...

Thank you for your hints, MMKA. I had tried with attack automation, but that doesn't work, since it makes the notes even more disconnected.

Wave Start Offset and its smoothing companion parameter, Start Offset Attack, seems to be effective in cutting the attack, but with the same resulting effect of slowing the attack on a smaller scale.

In any case, I think I have a different type of problem somewhere. In a new score, isolated, the woodwinds are smooth enough. In the score I'm working on they are not. I can't see anything strange in the Synchron Player parameters, so there is probably something else happening, making the legato sound so disconnected.

Paolo

Posted on Mon, Oct 25 2021 20:27
by PaoloT
Joined on Tue, Dec 27 2016, Posts 1189

The issue is multiplied when multiplying the number of woodwinds playing together. Here are a couple examples.

I've also tried increasing the Release Voices limit of all the woodwinds from 4 to 20, but with no change.

Paolo

File Attachment(s):
clarinets-legato.mp3 (195kb) downloaded 2 time(s).
ww-legato.mp3 (264kb) downloaded 6 time(s).

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Posted on Mon, Oct 25 2021 20:42
by MMKA
Joined on Tue, May 22 2012, Posts 454

And a combination of Wave Start Offset, Start Offset Attack, in the Perform tab the Legato mode "poly", and then a little overlap from note to note, does that work for you?

By the way: the examples you posted are rather acceptable in my ears, but I found out, that people can judge very different about these things. So who knows, the last suggestion works for you...

Posted on Mon, Oct 25 2021 20:47
by PaoloT
Joined on Tue, Dec 27 2016, Posts 1189

I've found an answer from Andi to a similar issue in the same file. I'll link it, even if it shows how obtuse I can be in my best days.

Release control too low

I've probably fixed the issue (the Release control going down and cutting the release) for the VI libraries, but not for the Synchron ones. Let's see if I can clean it more.

Paolo

Posted on Mon, Oct 25 2021 20:52
by MMKA
Joined on Tue, May 22 2012, Posts 454

I hope this will work for you!

Posted on Mon, Oct 25 2021 21:01
by PaoloT
Joined on Tue, Dec 27 2016, Posts 1189

Alas, no Release control data in my score. So, it's not that.

Originally Posted by: MMKA Go to Quoted Post

And a combination of Wave Start Offset, Start Offset Attack, in the Perform tab the Legato mode "poly", and then a little overlap from note to note, does that work for you?

I had tried poly legato mode, and more overlap. It still didn't smooth the legato.

Originally Posted by: MMKA Go to Quoted Post

By the way: the examples you posted are rather acceptable in my ears

I don't find them connected enough. You can hear the attack, that is something woodwind players try to minimize (and this is particularly effective with flute and clarinet).

By relistening to the old version made with the VI libraries (example attached), I'm sure I hear them to be much more smooth and connected. These are Trill Legato, that should now be included into the Fast Legato, but not available as separate articulations anymore.

Maybe there is a way to trigger Trill Legato deliberately? A threshold setting, somewhere?

Paolo

File Attachment(s):
ww-legato-vi.mp3 (219kb) downloaded 1 time(s).

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Posted on Mon, Oct 25 2021 21:27
by MMKA
Joined on Tue, May 22 2012, Posts 454

Definitely more legato! 

Posted on Mon, Oct 25 2021 22:08
by MMKA
Joined on Tue, May 22 2012, Posts 454

Originally Posted by: PaoloT Go to Quoted Post

Alas, no Release control data in my score. So, it's not that.

I thought you use Dorico, isn't it? In tab Play you can trigger cc23. I got this result (cc23 value about 90), 2 flutes and one clarinet

File Attachment(s):
UntitledU0020ProjectU00201U0020-U0020FlowU00201.mp3 (502kb) downloaded 15 time(s).

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Posted on Mon, Oct 25 2021 23:56
by PaoloT
Joined on Tue, Dec 27 2016, Posts 1189

Originally Posted by: MMKA Go to Quoted Post

I thought you use Dorico, isn't it? In tab Play you can trigger cc23. I got this result (cc23 value about 90), 2 flutes and one clarinet

Thank you for the example. I used Legato Blur, that should do the same as increasing the Release Time. I'll see if it makes any difference in my case.

Paolo

Posted on Tue, Oct 26 2021 10:39
by PaoloT
Joined on Tue, Dec 27 2016, Posts 1189

Originally Posted by: MMKA Go to Quoted Post

Legato mode "poly", and then a little overlap

Setting the woodwinds' legato to 'poly', and increasing the overlap between the notes, worked fine.

In the VI version, legato was set to 'poly'. Actually, all my VI presets have legato set to 'poly'.

At this point, I wonder if I should save all my Synchron and Synchronized presets with legato set to 'poly'. Is there any advantage in leaving it to 'mono'?

(As I wrote in the other thread: Somewhere else, another manufacturer of orchestral libraries suggests that mono legato is better with their product, since the player may get confused by poly legato (is it a smooth legato, or the beginning of a chord?).

So, I guess I'll leave it mono legato, but will create two techniques in Dorico: 'Legato Poly' and 'Legato Mono', one sending CC35=0 and the other CC35=127. It will be easy to insert them as a hidden technique in the score, and easily replicate it to the various instruments.)

Paolo

File Attachment(s):
ww-legato-sy-poly.mp3 (256kb) downloaded 0 time(s).

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