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How to record midi from Finale to Logic with vsl?
Last post Tue, Nov 23 2021 by Macker, 16 replies.
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Posted on Wed, Nov 10 2021 19:19
by roger.rudenstein_2567
Joined on Tue, Jun 17 2003, Posts 13

I use Finale to compose orchestral music and Logic Pro to play mostly vsl software instruments from the midi sent by FInale in real time.

I currently have a setup which uses the Logic environment to allow four ports worth of midi to play in Logic in real time as I play my composition in Finale 26.

The setup in Logic involves assigning channel splitters to software instruments which are sometimes just single instances of VEPRO or multiple instruments hosted in Ensemble 7.

The big problem with this setup is that it works great for the composing process, but when I need to record the midi from Finale into Logic it won't do it.  I think this is because the software instruments take midi input but only give audio output.

So to record Midi I have to use a more vanilla Logic Project in which I  can only record 16 channels of Midi at a time which requires me to  sometimes do as many as four different passes,  and line everything up. Depending on the piece this can be very time consuming.

I tried to implement vsl's template for multiple ports in logic but while it plays from FInale's midi it does not properly record the midi; it appears to put it all on one track instead of distributing it to the different instrument tracks.

Can anyone help?

Thanks,

Roger Rudenstein

Posted on Thu, Nov 11 2021 11:33
by andi
Joined on Wed, Feb 18 2004, Vienna, Posts 3591

Hello Roger!

I would simply export a MIDI file with Finale and import it with Logic.

Best regards,
Andi

Andreas Olszewski
Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Fri, Nov 12 2021 00:14
by roger.rudenstein_2567
Joined on Tue, Jun 17 2003, Posts 13

I'm hearing in another thread that Logic's demix setting only works on 16 tracks at a time.  Although it might work for more tracks in the 10.7 version with AU3.  (I'm currently on 10.6.2)

Also does some higher version allow you just specify port and track without going to the Environment in order to play and record Midi from an external source?

Could someone from VSL confirm or deny this?

Thanks,

Roger

Posted on Fri, Nov 12 2021 05:05
by Dewdman42
Joined on Tue, Feb 27 2018, Posts 983

10.7 is the higher version that lets you specify input port and channel for each track.  it is only with that feature that you might be able to record more than 16 unique tracks at a time.  and I can't verify that without having 10.7 myself to test it, but it should work.

Is this what you are needing to do?  Transfer music from Finale into Logic?  Midi export/import is indeed probably the way to go.  but if you're wanting to use Logic to host instruments while you compose in Finale...that's another story I guess.

Posted on Fri, Nov 12 2021 18:05
by Macker
Joined on Tue, Aug 21 2018, London, Posts 612

Roger, sorry but in the other thread I had no idea of your intended purpose for recording MIDI from Finale into Logic - I hadn't looked at your thread here since I'm not a notation app user. In that other thread I had assumed you knew that Logic's MIDI recording facilities have (until very recently) always been about capturing live performances by the user (or at most a small ensemble), and not designed for bulk MIDI transmissions from other software applications.

Anyway the good news for you is that Logic 10.7 certainly can record more than 16 MIDI channels simultaneously - and with no need to go into the Environment at all, it's all handled in the Track Inspector in Logic's main screen.

I don't know how Finale communicates its MIDI outputs, but I've just run a quick test with Cubase transmitting 64 MIDI channels in real time to Logic 10.7.1 via 4 IAC Busses, and Logic receiving and recording all 64 channels simultaneously. (Screenshot attached.) Whatever Finale's MIDI Output ports are, I assume they will be found by Logic 10.7 and made available for assignments to tracks in Logic's Track Inspector. I haven't yet tested a similar real time bulk MIDI transmission from Cubase to an AU3 VEPro template in new Logic, but it's on my to do list.

As yet I've no idea what Logic's new upper limit for MIDI recording is. What I saw in my test was Logic taking all 64 channels in its stride in one recording pass without the slightest protest or hiccup.

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"Music embodies feeling without forcing it to contend and combine with thought, as it is forced in most arts and especially in the art of words."
~ Franz Liszt
Posted on Sun, Nov 14 2021 12:49
by Macker
Joined on Tue, Aug 21 2018, London, Posts 612

UPDATE (Further to my last post above).

New Logic can record bulk MIDI data into a VEPro (AU3) template, then re-transmit it to a VEPro server.

I've discovered that Logic 10.7.1, containing an AU3 VEPro template (VSL's Single Instance model was used for the test), can sit in between a bulk real time MIDI transmitter (such as Cubase, as in my test, or any notation app that has all the usual MIDI output facilities) and a VEPro server (locally hosted in the test), and can live-record all of the inbound bulk MIDI data into the AU3 VEPro template, then retransmit that bulk recorded data to a VEPro server.

But there's a snag: it doesn't all happen together.

During Logic's live recording of the bulk MIDI input data (64 channels in my test), I found that VEPro was not receiving any more than the first 18 MIDI channels from Logic - no matter what thread count setting I put into VEPro, and no matter if one or all of the armed tracks were selected in Logic's track list. After each bulk recording in the test, Logic was found to have correctly recorded all 64 channels transmitted live by Cubase.

(My first guess is that it's something to do with Logic's Live-mode MIDI-Thru functionality not having been fully updated to cope with the potential of the new MIDI-In capabilities; we'll see. I have some diagnostic testing in mind: e.g. using further IAC Bus transmitters in place of the VEPro plugins in Logic, then monitoring what's being transmitted from Logic.)

The workaround:-

(I don't see this as too much of a limitation or chore, since it's likely that most notation app users would only use this configuration to take advantage of Logic's various editing facilities, before sending the MIDI onwards to VEPro.)

I found this workaround works (and in any case it relieves my worry that something somewhere might be momentarily saturating one or more CPU cores.)

Before the bulk data live recording in Logic, all AU3 VEPro plugins in Logic should be disabled or switched off. This does not affect Logic's ability to receive all the inbound bulk MIDI data and record it all correctly into the template. When the bulk MIDI recording is completed, all Logic's tracks should then be disarmed and the VEPro plugins in Logic re-enabled. Then Logic can play back all of its recorded tracks to VEPro normally and as expected.

"Music embodies feeling without forcing it to contend and combine with thought, as it is forced in most arts and especially in the art of words."
~ Franz Liszt
Posted on Sun, Nov 14 2021 17:07
by Dewdman42
Joined on Tue, Feb 27 2018, Posts 983

That's interesting.  So recording multi-port of 64 channels works...each of the tracks is getting the isolate tracks to record them, but its the "thru" part doesn't seem to encode port properly into the midi events as the pass thru to the AU3 instrument; as I I think am understanding you.

Please make sure to submit bug report to Apple if you haven't already.

If you don't mind...can you please try using my MidiMonitor script to show exactly what his happening?  this script will show the actual midi port that is getting sent to the AU3 plugin with each event..

You can get the script here: https://gitlab.com/dewdman42/midimonitorlpx/-/blob/master/MidiMon.js

Place this script using Scripter on the inst channel where the Vepro.AU3 plugin is hosted.  Then open the Script Editor window and watch it while you attempt your test.  you can copy and paste the results or attach it here...

Posted on Sun, Nov 14 2021 23:14
by Macker
Joined on Tue, Aug 21 2018, London, Posts 612

Rest easy, VSL: my own diagnostic tests I mentioned above have completely eliminated VSL software from any involvement in this 'snag' or bug, whatever. And that also puts the issue outside the scope of the whole VSL forum, so I'll not elaborate any further here.

"Music embodies feeling without forcing it to contend and combine with thought, as it is forced in most arts and especially in the art of words."
~ Franz Liszt
Posted on Sun, Nov 14 2021 23:17
by Dewdman42
Joined on Tue, Feb 27 2018, Posts 983

I wasn't meaning to suggest there is anything wrong here with VSL software.  I am just asking for clarification so that we can identify for sure its a bug in LogicPro 10.7.

Anyway, I am working on getting a copy of Monterey installed so that I can run the test myself, I will report back here my findings later.

Posted on Sun, Nov 14 2021 23:20
by Macker
Joined on Tue, Aug 21 2018, London, Posts 612

I'd still suggest to potential users of this configuration to observe the workaround I described above - at least until we know more about what's happening. It's an Apple Support job now.

"Music embodies feeling without forcing it to contend and combine with thought, as it is forced in most arts and especially in the art of words."
~ Franz Liszt
Posted on Sun, Nov 14 2021 23:21
by Dewdman42
Joined on Tue, Feb 27 2018, Posts 983

or just do midifile export/import

Posted on Mon, Nov 15 2021 00:46
by Helmholtz
Joined on Fri, Aug 27 2021, London UK, Posts 37

I like the idea!

Having done time with the traditional MIDI file export/import faff, as Andi properly suggests above, I'm well chuffed that it's now looking possible to record any or all MIDI straight into Logic from Dorico, etc. I've been thinking about buying Dorico as a front end for Logic-with-VEPro. I've always wanted a pro score editor, but not at the price of not having Logic always readily at hand for familiar and convenient MIDI and audio editing, control, automation and mixing.

I see no need to have Logic send its received MIDI straight through to VEPro while recording that MIDI from the notation app. That would be irrelevant for my purposes of sending notation app MIDI to Logic. So the 'snag' described above doesn't bother me. However, I'm not so confident about how I'd get Logic's MIDI back into Dorico for final tarting up, but no doubt I'll find a suitable way.

It's looking very much like Apple are determined to make Logic Pro top DAW.

Posted on Mon, Nov 15 2021 15:21
by Macker
Joined on Tue, Aug 21 2018, London, Posts 612

UPDATE 2

New Logic's "MIDI Thru" while not recording is also apparently limited to 18 channels. 

This is not just a snag but a serious roadblock in using new Logic to achieve a good solution to the intruiging and adventurous but problematic scenario described above by Roger.

Whilst I've established that it's possible to record 64 MIDI channels simultaneously into new Logic, that doesn't address the other situation described by Roger, in which the notation app plays back its MIDI through Logic into VEPro, without needing Logic to record any MIDI. And that's where I've encountered this roadblock in new Logic.

There is a kind of hint that new Logic doesn't want to arm more than 18 MIDI tracks altogether. Swiping the "R" buttons downwards in the track list brightly lights up only the first 18 R buttons, leaving further swiped R buttons only faintly lit. Oddly, however, swiping the R buttons upwards in the track list renders all swiped buttons brightly lit beyond the count of 18. Yet in both cases, no more than 18 armed tracks will pass inbound MIDI through to their destinations; counted - it seems - from the lowest armed track number in the track list. (No VSL software, nor anything constructed by me in the Environment, nor any other than Apple's own I/O plugins, were present in my tests that revealed this behaviour.)

It's probably feasible to work around this 18-track MIDI Thru limit by setting up various facilities in the Environment, since Roger has already done so for playing back Finale's 64 channels of MIDI through old Logic and onwards to VEPro. But in any case, this roadblock has dashed our hopes that new Logic - as it is now - can serve usefully, comfortably and conveniently in between a notation app and VEPro.

I'm hopeful Apple won't take the position that that's how it's been purposefully designed and will remain for the forseeable future. New Logic has already attained substantial new ground in its MIDI recording capabilities; it makes little sense to leave MIDI-Thru trailing far behind. But as ever, we'll have to wait and see.

"Music embodies feeling without forcing it to contend and combine with thought, as it is forced in most arts and especially in the art of words."
~ Franz Liszt
Posted on Mon, Nov 15 2021 18:14
by Dewdman42
Joined on Tue, Feb 27 2018, Posts 983

I installed Monterey so that I could test out LogicPro 10.7.1 on this, and I came to the same result as you Macker.  However, I was able to record-enable 64 midi tracks in Logic Pro, just select them all and hit the R button, they all end up record enabled.

But like you, it records all the tracks correctly as expected, however WHILE RECORDING...only the first 18 tracks are getting the port attribute set correctly as configured in the track's midi port out attribute (track inspector).  The rest are all sent to port 1 only.  Confirmed with midi logging.

But WHILE PLAYING IT BACK, then the midi out port works correctly, sending to all designated output midi ports.

Its an unusual situation, but this definitely looks like a bug in LogicPro which I will report to them shortly.

For the OP I personally think its kind of the wrong approach to attempt to work this way.  I would just use Finale->VePro and forget about LogicPro while working in Finale.  When you're ready to move to LogicPRO, then do a midi file export over to LogicPro and continue from there.

I hear you that it would be nice to use all three products at the same time, but its a complicated setup

Posted on Tue, Nov 16 2021 12:38
by Macker
Joined on Tue, Aug 21 2018, London, Posts 612

Roger, I've sent you a PM describing a slick workaround enabling a notation app, new Logic and AU3 VEPro to work together as you wanted.

"Music embodies feeling without forcing it to contend and combine with thought, as it is forced in most arts and especially in the art of words."
~ Franz Liszt
Posted on Tue, Nov 23 2021 15:22
by Macker
Joined on Tue, Aug 21 2018, London, Posts 612

UPDATE 3

I've now found it is possible to stream more than 18 channels of MIDI simultaneously through new Logic, either while recording that MIDI into Logic, or while just streaming it onwards to external destinations via armed tracks in Logic.

It's clumsy, but for now it's all we've got without resorting to the Environment.

It seems new Logic's 18-channel limit for MIDI-Thru is tied either to the number of armed single stand-alone SW Instruments involved, or the number of MIDI Input Port assignments involved, or both - I haven't yet devised a way of revealing which it is; I'm regarding that as a merely academic point of knowledge at this stage of the game.

  •   More than 18 MIDI channels can be streamed concurrently through new Logic, whether recording or not, by using multiple Track Stacks (only the summing type of Stack has been tested thus far).

The clumsiness of this approach is in the fact that for each MIDI input port, mutli-channel MIDI must be routed (and recorded when required) into one multi-channel MIDI region in a Track Stack's summing track. Alas, there doesn't seem to be any slick way of separating each of these recorded MIDI channels into an individual MIDI region on its own single-channel instrument track. There is a "Separate by Channel" menu option but this always creates new tracks assigned to the original multi-channel track. Relocating the regions to their own single-channel instrument tracks in the stack has to be done manually, which is a tedious chore to say the least.

It seems to me Apple designed this with mulitimbral instruments in mind (such as Kontakt, or multitimbral hardware synths connected externally), and they deemed multi-channel MIDI regions to be just fine for working with these 'exotic', 'state-of-the-art' beasts, Lol. Adept composers and other advanced users of VSL instruments don't seem to figure in this great (old) scheme of things.

Thus far I've tested the Track Stack method with 32 concurrent channels of MIDI Thru; sent via 2 IAC Busses from Cubase; each IAC bus routed in Logic's Track Inspector to the summing track of a 16-instrument Track Stack; each idividual instrument in each Track Stack having an External Instrument plugin inserted, routed to channels of 2 other IAC Busses for monitoring purposes.

I'm certainly not proposing that Finale and other pro notation app users should use their notation app, new Logic and VEPro together in this clumsy way. I mention it only in case a few intrepid, resourceful, inventive users of these 3 types of software might wish to explore further.

I'm currently considering buying Dorico for use with new Logic and VEPro (AU3), and my own approach will involve a substantial intervention in Logic's Environment - unless Apple improves the situation before then. But that's another story.

"Music embodies feeling without forcing it to contend and combine with thought, as it is forced in most arts and especially in the art of words."
~ Franz Liszt
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