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Is this a Synchron Player bug or am I doing something wrong?
Last post Tue, Jan 04 2022 by rgames, 14 replies.
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Posted on Mon, Dec 20 2021 20:34
by rgames
Joined on Wed, Oct 13 2004, Posts 194

I am setting up custom articulation sets using the Synchron player and I am running into odd issues where a change on one part of the tree changes something in a total different part of the tree.

For example, I have a set of artics for the brass that includes marcato long notes w/ a vibrato crossfade.  I want the crossfade assigned to CC4, which I have assigned to Dim Ctrl C.  I can assign that no problem.

However, if I then assign a flutter+marc overlay under a different part of the tree (see below) and set the control to "none", the marcato longs then also change to "none" (also see below).  They're in a completely different part of the tree and I can't figure out why they would change.

More importantly, I can't get both controls to exist at the same time.  When I change one, the other changes to match it.  So there's no way I can figure out how to use CC4 for the marcato long vibrato xfade while also using no crossfade on the flutter+marc overlay.

This has to be a bug, right?  Or am I doing something wrong?  Hopefully this makes sense - it's complicated...

Thanks,

 rgames

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Richard G. Ames
Composer - Arranger - Producer
www.rgamesmusic.com
Posted on Mon, Dec 20 2021 21:17
by Paul
Joined on Sat, Aug 03 2002, Vienna, Posts 13355

Hi rgames, 

Check out the GROUP EDIT button in the EDIT View (#8)!

Best, 
Paul

Paul Kopf
Product Manager - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Mon, Dec 20 2021 21:40
by rgames
Joined on Wed, Oct 13 2004, Posts 194

OK - one says "Type | Fluttert. marc." and the other says "Type | Marcato".

So aren't they in different groups?

I changed the name of the groups to different names that are also different from each other but they're still linked.  When I change one, the other still changes.  New images attached.

Is there any to turn off the linking without changing the group name?  Changing the group name seems to have no effect.

Thanks

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Richard G. Ames
Composer - Arranger - Producer
www.rgamesmusic.com
Posted on Tue, Dec 21 2021 03:24
by ravez
Joined on Sun, Apr 24 2011, Posts 28

i think it's because they have same name for dimension? i would call them according to their purpose, as in why would you call the dimension "marcato attack" if it has vibrato cells? As far as i understand dimensions with same name and same assigned controller will be treated like one, which makes total sense if that's your goal, but in this case they clearly should be 2 different dimensions with different names

Posted on Mon, Jan 03 2022 04:17
by rgames
Joined on Wed, Oct 13 2004, Posts 194

Friendly bump - I still have all kinds of issues with groups.  It's taking me forever to set up a template because things are linked to each other and I can't figure out how to delete the links.  When I change something in one part of the tree something changes in some other very distant part.  It's very frustrating and time-consuming...!

Is there a "delete all groups" or "disable groups" option somewhere?  I don't want to use any of that functionality and it's causing me a lot of headache.

Thanks

Richard G. Ames
Composer - Arranger - Producer
www.rgamesmusic.com
Posted on Mon, Jan 03 2022 16:18
by Paul
Joined on Sat, Aug 03 2002, Vienna, Posts 13355

Hi, 

You cannot delete group links and there are no "delete all groups" or "disable groups" options available, as the logic is very important for the preset structure.

Groups are a very helpful part of preset building and once they are established, there are also some automation features that make it easier to work with all the options. 

My suggestion: Create a new group and assign the slots you want to edit to new groups (Click "Edit" and enter a group name). If you don't want any slots linked, simply use one group per slot. Fantasy names are fine :-)

Best, 
Paul

Paul Kopf
Product Manager - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Mon, Jan 03 2022 17:02
by rgames
Joined on Wed, Oct 13 2004, Posts 194

Originally Posted by: Paul Go to Quoted Post

Hi, 

You cannot delete group links and there are no "delete all groups" or "disable groups" options available, as the logic is very important for the preset structure.

Groups are a very helpful part of preset building and once they are established, there are also some automation features that make it easier to work with all the options. 

My suggestion: Create a new group and assign the slots you want to edit to new groups (Click "Edit" and enter a group name). If you don't want any slots linked, simply use one group per slot. Fantasy names are fine :-)

Best, 
Paul

Hi Paul - did you see my reply to your first post?  It's my second post in this thread.  It shows that I did change the group name and the names are, indeed, different.  But they're still linked.

Maybe I'm not changing the name on the correct cell?  I've tried changing all kinds of names in all kinds of places and I still have issues with weird links.

Can you point me to an example somewhere, or where I can find the info in the manual?  I really don't understand what these groups do.

FYI I only have these issues when I try to modify the VSL-provided presets.  When I create my own, the group names are all blank and they work just fine!  So, again, I don't understand what the groups do other than confuse the heck out of me...!

Thanks

Richard G. Ames
Composer - Arranger - Producer
www.rgamesmusic.com
Posted on Mon, Jan 03 2022 21:32
by ravez
Joined on Sun, Apr 24 2011, Posts 28

The groups are set by default to auto, which means the name of the group is gonna be the name of the dimension plus the name of the selected cell. And you should leave it at auto because that's how the player should work for consistency when switching lower level dimensions, so it keeps the higher level cells.

So you can say switch from sustain to legato all while keeping a vibrato. That can work because of the group.

But again, the groups has an automated naming that makes it work out of the box, so you shouldn't even have to touch it.

If instead you change the name of the dimensions and their relative controllers everything will work fine.

I have made my custom presets starting from the default presets as well and never had to touch the groups to make it work as expected, only dimension names and controllers.

Posted on Mon, Jan 03 2022 22:07
by rgames
Joined on Wed, Oct 13 2004, Posts 194

OK - I see now that the group name changes to the dimension name + cell name once you add a dimension name.

I think the bottom line is that I just don't understand what the group identifier does.  I have groups that have the same name that are *not* linked and groups with different names that *are* linked, which seems to be the opposite of what the groups are supposed to do.  And then there are a bunch of cells where the names and links behave as I would expect.  I guess I'm just expecting the wrong behavior :)

For whatever reason I just can't customize the VSL-provided presets without getting weird links between totally unrelated parts of the tree.  They seem to work fine as provided but as soon as I start moving things around it all goes to crap!

When I start from scratch everything works perfectly fine.  So I guess that's what I'll have to do.

Thanks,

rgames

Richard G. Ames
Composer - Arranger - Producer
www.rgamesmusic.com
Posted on Tue, Jan 04 2022 03:40
by plowman
Joined on Sat, Dec 13 2003, Posts 1141

Perhaps your issue is different. But when that happens to me (and it only happens when I'm designing my own templates), here's an example of what's going on:

A dimension is set to A0. It has two slots: A0 and B0.

Somewhere else, there's another dimension that starts at C0. It has 10 slots, chromatically ascending. Everything plays fine...

Until I hit keyswitch A0. This is because the tenth slot in the second dimension (starting at C0) shares A0 with the first dimension (starting at A0). And these may be completely unrelated dimensions. 

The duplicate assignments are harder to find than my simplistic example. But as you can see, it has nothing to do with Groups or their naming. It's simply one instance with a duplicate assignment hiding deep in the weeds of two (or more) slots. And they often are found in unrelated slots -- not parent/child slots. 

When these are triggered, the slot tree orientation may change, and it's befuddling. 

Understandably, starting fresh remedies this, as does using the VSL Presets, as the former is built from scratch without duplicate assignments and the latter is assembled by our wiser counterparts at VSL. 

Posted on Tue, Jan 04 2022 15:15
by Macker
Joined on Tue, Aug 21 2018, London, Posts 555

I encountered the same kind of trouble in my first attempts to edit a Synchron library. Plowman says it for me too: it can be "befuddling".

Then when I used Sublime Text to view the whole Data Admin Schema (DAS) used for Synchron Player's Dimension Trees, I realised I'd have to work out the precise rules of this particular DAS - and most especially the rules governing edited Group Names (which appear in the DAS in the items labelled "EditId"). I didn't get any further than that realisation, because data admin ain't my part of ship, and many other pressing tasks were waiting. So the idea of editing my own Synchron presets has remained on a back burner.

It would be improper, I believe, to ask VSL to explain to us the full functionality of their Synchron Player DAS - because after all, it's the fruit of their world-class proprietary work. I also think they've been very generous in offering a wee bit of under-the-hood access to the DAS for those who know what they're doing.

I think there's an important clue in VSL's contextual help text for the Group Edit feature: "you can create additional groups" (my emphasis). Likewise the Synchron Player manual says "You can also add custom groups". These two statements seem at odds with the other stetements relating to the functionality of group edit, but I have to read it as meaning "Don't try to edit existing groups unless you really know what you're doing." And since I don't, I won't.

For us mere mortals, Plowman's approach seems to be the best - start from scratch.

"We should always remember that sensitiveness and emotion constitute the real content of a work of art."
~ Maurice Ravel
Posted on Tue, Jan 04 2022 17:41
by ravez
Joined on Sun, Apr 24 2011, Posts 28

you really don't need to start from scratch and/or touch groups at all.

You just have to use consistency with dimension trees naming and controllers.

I have edited the default presets rebuilding entire libraries and have not had any issues unless i created by mistake the same name/controller for dimensions that were supposed to contain unrelated slots (like a vibrato and an attack for example).

Just saying it is indeed possible and easy to configure it to your liking without going from scratch.

Posted on Tue, Jan 04 2022 19:05
by Macker
Joined on Tue, Aug 21 2018, London, Posts 555

Many thanks for that good news, Ravez; your encouragement is much appreciated!

"We should always remember that sensitiveness and emotion constitute the real content of a work of art."
~ Maurice Ravel
Posted on Tue, Jan 04 2022 20:49
by rgames
Joined on Wed, Oct 13 2004, Posts 194

OK I think I got the hang of it now.  It was definitely befuddling for a while.

I think the key for me was the realization that the titles at the top of each "dimension" are, in fact, a key part of the logical structure.  When I started out I thought they were arbitrary and the logical structure was determined solely by the geometry of the tree.  I understand why VSL does it that way - it makes sense.

Another source of my confusion was the "click away and back" behavior that reveals how those links work.  In other words, if I copied/pasted something that had a link to another part of the tree it wasn't revealed until I clicked to some other part of the tree then back to where I pasted. So, for example, I'd paste something in and the controller would say "Dim ctrl D" or whatever but then when I went back to it it was changed to "Dim ctrl A" or whatever.  So I'd check it when I created it and made sure it was correct but then when I went to another part of the tree it was changed to something else in the background.  Sneaky... and befuddling.

In general there are some weird GUI behaviors like that.  For example, when I change a CC value the entire window disappears behind whatever window is beneath it and I have to alt-tab to get back to it.  That's weird.

I still don't completely understand the group editor box but I don't think I need to mess with it now.  So I'll add that to the unexplained mysteries I've encountered in life.

But thanks for the replies - I finally figured it out.  It's quirky but it does appear to work.

rgames

Richard G. Ames
Composer - Arranger - Producer
www.rgamesmusic.com
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