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  • What's spamming Ableton's undo history with "Change "Vel.FX"/"Dim.Ctrl/B""?

    Seeing a strange effect with Ableton's undo history and the Synchron Player. I assume it's a user error on my side, but I fail to see what's wrong. Somebody else experienced something like this and can help?

    To reproduce, I am giving an exact description of what I see. System setup is a regular Windows 10 PC with Ableton Live 11 and Vienna's latest software installed. No extra equipment connected, esp. no MIDI controllers, microphones etc.

    1. Open Ableton and create a new Live Set

    2. Open the Collections pane, browse to Categories > Plug-Ins > VST3 > VSL and drag the Vienna Synchron Player onto one of the empty MIDI tracks

    3. In the Synchron Player, select any library from the SYNCHRON Collections, for example PRESET > Factory > SYNCHRON Collctions > 02 Synchron Strings Pro > 01 VelXF sus - MOD > 11 Tutti full range XF sus

    4. In Ableton's arrangement view, mark some bars in that track, right-click and choose Create Empty MIDI Clip (Ctrl+Shift+M)

    5. Open the MIDI editor for that clip and enter some notes by double-clicking with the mouse (remember: no MIDI input devices connected)

    6. Open the Edit menu to inspect the undo operation at the top: It says "Undo drawing notes (Ctrl+Z)", which is exactly what I'd expect

    7. Press the Play button to play the notes you entered, then press the Stop button.

    8. Open the Edit menu to inspect the undo operation at the top: It says one of either "Undo "Dim.Ctrl/B" change" or "Undo "Vel.FX" change""

    This is unexpected. Why should playback of the arrangement produce undoable operations? I'd expect the undo history to present the latest user interaction, i.e. "Undo drawing note" to undo the editing we did in step 5.

    When observing Ableton's status bars at the top right of the main window during the playback, the indicators also do not suggest that Ableton is receiving any MIDI input from somwhere. (There is a little box that lights up whenever a MIDI event is received, but it stays dark throughout the playback, as expected.)

    When observing the Synchron Player's faders during the playback, there is also nothing to notice. They remain where they are. This is as expected, because we didn't program any changes on this level. However, this contradicts Ableton pretending that some of these dimensions were changing.

    When I repeat the steps with a different VST, for example Native Instruments' Kontakt, and any library therein, I do not experience this effect. The undo history remains unchanged in this case, and the last entry is the "Undo drawing note" operation we did in step 5, as expected.

    9. Select the Undo operation, for example by pressing Ctrl+Z

    There is no noticeable change to any MIDI events, CC controller curves, tracks, settings or so.

    10. Select the Undo operation more times, for example by pressing Ctrl+Z repeatedly

    At some point, the stack of unexpected "Vel.FX"/"Dim.Ctrl/B" entries seem to be exhausted and Ableton starts undoing the real user interaction - in this case the manual notes entered in step 5. However, with increasing length of playback, there seems to be an aweful lot of those undo actions required to get back to the real stuff.

    The effect is extremely annoying in daily work: I often experiment with arrangement details, then listen to it, then want to undo what I did. This is no longer possible, because those event changes get in the way.

    Image


  • Narrowed down the source:

    1. Open the Synchron Player and switch to tab "Control", https://www.vsl.info/en/manuals/synchron-player/control-tab

    2. Watch out for a Controller Destination that is mapped to the Source "Speed". In my case, it was "Dim.Ctrl/B",

    3. Double-click the Source ("Speed") and choose "None" from the menu

    Playing back the arrangement now no longer fills the undo list with hidden interactions.

     

    Experimented more and found this related effect:

    1. Select the MIDI clip created, open the MIDI Note Editor, and switch to the envelope tab

    2. Under "Envelope", choose the device "MIDI Ctrl"

    3. Next to it, choose the parameter "1: Modulation Wheel"

    4. Use the mouse to draw a modulation curve across the entered notes

    Playing back this clip now fills the undo list with events of the form "Undo "Vel.FX" change".

     

    Don't understand what's happening. The DAW plays back the arrangement and sends MIDI events to the Vienna plugin, such as CC1 modulation wheel changes, and apparently also continuously, speed events. In my understanding, the plugin should be passive, i.e. receive these events and react to them by modulating the sound it generates. However, the plugin seems to play an active role and mirror these events back to the DAW, in a fashion that makes the DAW think it's seeing user interaction.

     

    Is this a bug, a wrong configuration, or a misunderstanding how MIDI works? Hope it's not the latter, because all summed up, it totally spoils the work experience in Ableton.


  • I have the same problem. Hope VSL can fix this asap. its painful when moving a few clips at a time.


  • Hey Hoffmann. I've found a solution! 

    Instead of using VST3 version of synchron player, use their VST version or AU version. The problem goes away!

    Wish VSL could address this bug earlier rather than letting their customer panic and spend hours looking for solutions. Hard to justify from buying from them in the future.


  • Hi!

    The Speed controller of this particular instrument reacts to any midi note input in dependency on how much time has gone by since the previous MIDI note. Therefore you see that additional MIDI data on Dim. Ctrl B. after every (!) MIDI note.


    VSL Team | Product Specialist & Media Editing