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Synchron-ized Dimension First and Second Violins
Last post Mon, Jun 20 2022 by Macker, 4 replies.
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Posted on Fri, Jun 17 2022 00:02
by plowman
Joined on Sat, Dec 13 2003, Posts 1141

This library has first and second violins. 

The first violins' first player's sustain patch slot reads as follows:

"patchEntry" : "vol:\/\/at.co.vsl.sy.dimstrI.vi:public\/patches\/01 Dimension Violins\/01 Violins Player 1\/01 Regular\/01 SHORT + LONG NOTES\/11 VI-P1_RE_sus_Vib.vsynpatch",

"performances" : [

The second violins' first player's sustain patch slot reads as follows:

"patchEntry" : "vol:\/\/at.co.vsl.sy.dimstrI.vi:public\/patches\/01 Dimension Violins\/01 Violins Player 1\/01 Regular\/01 SHORT + LONG NOTES\/11 VI-P1_RE_sus_Vib.vsynpatch",

"performances" : [

These appear to be identical. Am I correct that the difference between the samples' sound is the Synchron Stage IR in the players' mix settings? ("Dim Violins 1" and "Dim Violins 2") Otherwise, are they the same samples?

I'm building a new template right now, and I'm about to treat them as the same samples. 

Posted on Sat, Jun 18 2022 07:57
by Macker
Joined on Tue, Aug 21 2018, London, Posts 555

Thanks for the heads-up, Plowman. Very interesting.

Having compared the patch text files as you've done, and also having done some testing with Melodyne, I concur; they do indeed appear to be the very same samples.

Strange thing is though, I haven't yet been able to get them to sound phasey when played in unison. But I'll keep trying with that because of course it's crucial to know if there's any chance of the phasing horror.

Alas I've no way of going back to see if it was the same situation in the pre-iLok library, either Synchronized or VI. Perhaps someone will help us out with that question.

To corroborate your observation, I've attached a Melodyne screenshot. This shows a note by Player 1 in Violins 1, followed by the same note by Player 1 in Violins 2, in a chromatic scale. In both Synchron Players I used default Mixer Preset and switched off all mixer channels except for Player 1. Velocity was 100 for all notes, with Vel.XF and Timbre Adjust switched off in both players. The articulation played for both was All Players/Regular/Long Notes/Sustain/Regular vib. The yellow/red blobs show the amplitude envelope, and the black lines inside show the pitch oscillations of vibrato - except for open G string. For every pair of same notes, the amplitude envelopes and the pitch variations look identical for Vn1 and Vn2. (Also clearly shown is where one sample is used for two adjacent pitches, which has long been a familiar technique in high quality sample libraries.)

I'm still thinking through possible consequences for my usage of this library. Overall I'm currently feeling that I'd prefer not to have this situation - though I suspect we'll have to put up with it.

File Attachment(s):
Melodyne_Screenshot_Vn1_v_Vn2_Player1.jpg (991kb) downloaded 8 time(s).

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"We should always remember that sensitiveness and emotion constitute the real content of a work of art."
~ Maurice Ravel
Posted on Sat, Jun 18 2022 20:59
by plowman
Joined on Sat, Dec 13 2003, Posts 1141

Wonderful detective work, Macker. Fascinating to see the duplicated adjacent samples. C4 seems to be unto itself. And note the lack of vibrato in the open G3 string. 

Like you, I don't hear phasing, other than what my mind fears due to auto-suggestion -- like when you move the wrong fader and tell yourself you can hear the difference. 

Here's another point of interest: Synchron-ized Appassionata violin long vibratos are *labeled* differently. This does not prove that they are different samples. But unlike the Dimensions, they at least have different text read-outs:

"patchEntry" : "vol:\/\/at.co.vsl.sy.appstr:public\/patches\/01 SYzd Appassionata Violins 1\/03 SVI-20A_Long-Vib.vsynpatch",

"patchEntry" : "vol:\/\/at.co.vsl.sy.appstr:public\/patches\/02 SYzd Appassionata Violins 2\/03 SVI-20B_Long-Vib.vsynpatch",

Posted on Mon, Jun 20 2022 09:18
by Macker
Joined on Tue, Aug 21 2018, London, Posts 555

Thank you. Melodyne has been helping me get somewhat 'forensic' in my working with audio samples for over 20 years now - it's the real "detective" here, lol.

Just discovered that with Syz Dim Violins 1 & 2, I can get them sounding phasey in unison if I have Humanize switched on in one of them but off in the other. When Humanize in both is switched off or on, there's no phasing! I'm pretty sure VSL has been very crafty as well as very pragmatic, and my hat is off to them for that. I can think of certain tricks that might be in use but since I've no wish to risk giving aid to VSL's rivals, I'll keep shtum.

Oh yes I know what you mean about auto-suggestion in this line of work - sometimes it's like having a built-in comedian who gives me a good laugh at myself; other times it's good anti-gaslighting practice for dealing with pesky narcs, lolol.

The case of Syz Appassionata Violins 1 & 2 seems to use different crafty tactics: mostly borrowing a sample from an adjacent pitch - see attached Melodyne screenshot (same arrangement as with Dim Strings testing above, but here with a few more notes in the chromatic scale).

I've never looked into this Violins 1 & 2 situation before and I'm grateful to you for having pointed it out. On the one hand, VSL have used their crafty tactics so well that I've never had cause to investigate it (and have unknowingly benefited from the price and storage advantages which come from these crafty tricks). But on the other hand, now that I'm aware, I'm prepared to find ways of going the extra mile in pursuit of even better realism whenever I feel a need for it.

Good to know you're still here and interested and bringing to bear your well-seasoned expertise, Plowman!

File Attachment(s):
Melodyne_Syz_Appass_Vn1_vs_Vn2.jpg (1,022kb) downloaded 3 time(s).

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"We should always remember that sensitiveness and emotion constitute the real content of a work of art."
~ Maurice Ravel
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